Shame Europe is going to be stuck with the inferior CCS2 forever.
CCS2 is clunkier than NACS, but not too bad. At least it doesn't have the big external latch that CCS1 has.
Why Tesla's EV charging system won the race to become America's standard
21–30 of 31 posts
Re: Why Tesla's EV charging system won the race to become America's standard
#22I doubt it will be _the_ standard, though. I think we'll need to flip the setup so that a cord is in the car with people stealing them for the copper.
Re: Why Tesla's EV charging system won the race to become America's standard
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
3 phase is a huge deal, especially for commercial fleets. For public charging DC fast chargers are incredibly expensive, whereas a 3 phase AC charger is pretty cheap and effectively the same price as single phase charger. Delivering more power for the same install cost is valuable since it opens more charging use cases for low cost charging. I think north america is going to regret not having 1st class support for 3…
>3 phase is a huge deal, especially for commercial fleets. Commercial fleets in the US will use 3 phase for DC. For commercial installations, this is a non-issue [0]. It's more efficient to use DC charging at scale than reside on the vehicle's onboard rectifier. >I think north america is going to regret not having 1st class support for 3 phase charging baked into all electrified vehicles in the long term. It's alread…
That involves expensive external hardware converting AC to DC. I'm talking about native 3 phase charging embedded into every vehicle and the charging port design and specification itself.
There are certainly fleets that need rapid charging throughout the day and they will need expensive DC units. There are many fleets that only need lower speed, longer duration overnight charging at the fleet yard. Native 3 phase with load sharing charging hardware is the lowest cost way to achieve that. No need for expensive labour to move vehicles or power connections overnight, much lower installation cost than even the smallest DC charging hardware, and no need for expensive 400+V DC certified electricians.
Re: Why Tesla's EV charging system won the race to become America's standard
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
It doesn't have enough wires. For power NACS has 2 wires for single phase AC or DC and a small ground wire. CCS2 has 7 wires. 5 for 3 phase power (3 phases + ground + neutral) and 2 more for DC. It a pretty mad design. If you think about it CCS2 requires every single car to lug around a 3 phase battery AC-DC converter instead of just putting it with the chargers. Doesn't make sense.
> 3 phase battery AC-DC converter instead of just putting it with the chargers 3-phase -> DC is easier than single phase. One of the benefits of 3-phase is that power delivered is constant, so you don't need very big capacitors. That's part of the reason nobody makes a DC fast charger bigger than about 20kW.
Yes but is 3 phase 22kW easier than 1 phase 7kW? I doubt it.
Re: Why Tesla's EV charging system won the race to become America's standard
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I think north america is going to regret not having 1st class support for 3 phase charging baked into all electrified vehicles in the long term. Doubt it. Long term, I think cars are going to drop AC chargers entire (they're heavy and expensive), and when DCFC are available everywhere there won't be any reason to pay for one in your vehicle. As manufacturers look for places to reduce cost and bring vehicles down ma…
I doubt your doubt. They’re not that heavy, and a 12kW inverter charger isn’t particularly expensive. Maybe $600-700 retail or $200-300 in BOM. Asking everyone to put a high power AC/DC converter in their house or charging infrastructure even for “low” (8-12kW) power stuff is asking a lot for pushing cost around. Long term, you want chargers to be cheap as chips… not more expensive.
No, long term you want cars to be cheap as chips and chargers to be more expensive. There are way more chargers than cars, and they probably last a lot longer. And removing the converter from the car means you can make it bigger and heavier and cheaper. And it removes an expensive point of failure from cars.
Re: Why Tesla's EV charging system won the race to become America's standard
#26This reads more like a puff piece about Tesla's charging system than a real discussion on /why/ anything matters. And the prose is positive about everything. I'd love to know what information is "missing" from the J1772 communication protocol, the trade offs on a digital vs analogue "protocol"? Does it require more control circuitry on each side? Are there safety issues with such high power being controlled by a rela…
Of course. Motor Trend was a popular magazine 20 years ago, now it's a flailing web property fighting for clicks like the rest of them. Tesla gets clicks.
Re: Why Tesla's EV charging system won the race to become America's standard
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
I doubt your doubt. They’re not that heavy, and a 12kW inverter charger isn’t particularly expensive. Maybe $600-700 retail or $200-300 in BOM. Asking everyone to put a high power AC/DC converter in their house or charging infrastructure even for “low” (8-12kW) power stuff is asking a lot for pushing cost around. Long term, you want chargers to be cheap as chips… not more expensive.
No, long term you want cars to be cheap as chips and chargers to be more expensive. There are way more chargers than cars, and they probably last a lot longer. And removing the converter from the car means you can make it bigger and heavier and cheaper. And it removes an expensive point of failure from cars.
If there’s more chargers than there are cars, then moving cost into the chargers is bad. Adding cost to something we want to be as ubiquitous as possible (charging infrastructure) will hamper it.
Also, not sure if you’ve ever seen even the infrastructure for existing EV chargers… but I’m skeptical that infrastructure will outlast cars in most cases. There’s a ton of maintenance I’ve seen required just on the “dumb” AC chargers. People hit them, they get vandalized, or they just stop working. Making them even more expensive to repair would be the wrong move.
Re: Why Tesla's EV charging system won the race to become America's standard
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, long term you want cars to be cheap as chips and chargers to be more expensive. There are way more chargers than cars, and they probably last a lot longer. And removing the converter from the car means you can make it bigger and heavier and cheaper. And it removes an expensive point of failure from cars.
If there’s more chargers than there are cars, then moving cost into the chargers is bad. Adding cost to something we want to be as ubiquitous as possible (charging infrastructure) will hamper it. Also, not sure if you’ve ever seen even the infrastructure for existing EV chargers… but I’m skeptical that infrastructure will outlast cars in most cases. There’s a ton of maintenance I’ve seen required just on the “dumb” A…
Sorry I meant more cars than chargers.
Re: Why Tesla's EV charging system won the race to become America's standard
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
3 phase is a huge deal, especially for commercial fleets. For public charging DC fast chargers are incredibly expensive, whereas a 3 phase AC charger is pretty cheap and effectively the same price as single phase charger. Delivering more power for the same install cost is valuable since it opens more charging use cases for low cost charging. I think north america is going to regret not having 1st class support for 3…
> For public charging DC fast chargers are incredibly expensive Maybe so but 3 phase AC is already the minority, and we've barely started the transition to electric cars. Look at https://www.zap-map.com/live Orange is 3 phase AC. It's about as popular as single phase, and way less popular than DC. They just opened a brand new transport hub near me with 100 charging points. All single phase. I just don't think it's a…
Over in Finland the usual home charger options are 3.6 kW and 11 kW, and that makes a difference (24 hrs vs overnight).
Also three-phase AC is ubiquitous here, you need it to run your sauna stove :D
Re: Why Tesla's EV charging system won the race to become America's standard
#30Well they have promised to open it up to more cars but have not yet, so I guess, in theory, they have, but not in practice.