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Fundamental physics is dying? [video]

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Re: Fundamental physics is dying? [video]

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Name a single physics phenomenon that was discovered purely with way 2. I can only think of one, the positron. Newtonian physics was not kicked off by math "advances". Approximately speaking it was the other way, Newton created the math to explain p^2 ~ r^3, which was a surprising observation. Even theory of relativity wasn't really a math advance, the math was already mostly worked out by mach, lorenz, and minkowski…

The Higgs.

No the higgs mechanism was directly proposed from how particles masses were not explainable from the existing model -- so it's clearly in the "surprising observation" category.

The positron was, "oh what if we had this thing that is mathematically possible". Very different. IIRC the discovery was kind of independent. It was in the data the whole time so if the physicists didn't just ignore those "impossible" bubble tracks they might have found it before the math.

If we discovered superluminal tachyons that would definitely count. But we haven't found those.

Re: Fundamental physics is dying? [video]

#222
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CERN would like to build a bigger particle accelerator Sabine has a point though. There isn't any specific thing thing that a larger accelerator is likely to yield a positive answer on. Unlike the current biggest, which was at least explicitly constructed to find the higgs. And before you say dark matter, there's zero evidence that dark matter particles will be in any given mass range nor is there a solud model tha…

The topic of this video is that people are struggling to find new paths forward due to a lack of experimental data and a lack of results from theoretical approaches - which ultimately is contingent on finding some new experimental data they can predict. So one way or another, it's quite likely you will need a larger accelerator. Moreover, logistically, not building that accelerator means you quite likely never have i…

> Moreover, logistically, not building that accelerator means you quite likely never have it

That's exactly wrong. Who knows if you wait a bit the underlying technologies might cause a step change in price to build and make it so the project actually might get completed. For example waxahatchie vs cern

Re: Fundamental physics is dying? [video]

#223
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What time frame are you talking about here? Starting in 01950, 01995, 02010? If we're talking about 01995, it's conceivable that, say, the US and CERN could coordinate to suppress research into hafnium bombs, AVLIS, antigravity, or whatever. If we're talking about research much prior to that point, though, you'd have to include the Russians in the conspiracy. Probably not just any Russians, either; probably Khrushche…

I have never seen someone prefix dates with a zero like this. Why are you doing that?

It's from The Long Now Foundation: a nonprofit established in 01996 to foster long-term thinking.

Re: Fundamental physics is dying? [video]

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To extend this, group dynamics can come into play too. I once worked at a startup that developed fancy new tec. The group dynamic there was that critical thinking absolutely did not exist. The reason was probably that they accepted only people in their circle, that had the same burning positive attitude towards the idea. This can become a self reinforcing circle, because critically thinking people will leave at some…

Off topic, but a bent towards irrational optimism is necessary for progress. Generally, positive bias is needed for good mental health. Probability shows that your idea will almost certainly fail, but you can’t believe that and put in the necessary effort to make it succeed.

This is a very good point, but then there is a fine line between bravery and stupidity.

Re: Fundamental physics is dying? [video]

#225
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copernicus used the same circular-orbit-plus-epicycles system as Ptolemy, just the orbits were centered around the sun (kind of---each planet had its own circle, with the sun only approximately in the middle). The system actually had more epicycles than Ptolemy's and was less accurate. It wasn't an advance in any meaningful sense. The real breakthrough was Kepler, who dropped the idea that planets moved in circles. I…

I'd say that Galileo spotting the phases of Venus was also a big deal.

That only ruled out one particularly broken model (everything revolving directly around the earth). The dominant model at the time had the sun and moon revolving around the earth and everything else revolving around the sun, with epicycles. All the information Galileo was able to present to people was equally consistent with heliocentrism and geocentrism, and Galileo's favored heliocentric model was less elegant and explained no extra data.

(Not entirely for lack of trying, though Galileo's favored rhetorical approach was 'I'm obviously right and you're all idiots', he did work with some others to try to demonstrate the rotation of the earth via displacement of dropped objects, but didn't succeed because it's quite a tricky measurement)

Re: Fundamental physics is dying? [video]

#226
post #160
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This strongly depends on what you mean by "theory of knowledge". If you mean the practical importance of self-honesty, and a historical awareness of how easily we slip into self-delusion, then I agree. See, for instance, https://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm for a very famous speech on exactly this topic. A lot of Feynman's writing touches on the same issue. If you mean the musings of philosophers…

I meant your second perspective. I'm in the Popper camp on your example. You may have good reasons as to why you say he's wrong, but isn't that the scientific method: showing things to be false. If it can't be shown to be false then how can it be scientific? It might be some other branch of thought. On the specific case of quantum mechanics - I want to see these forever promised quantum computers actually doing somet…

Quantum computers were proposed primarily as a means for physicists to do simulations of quantum mechanics. I don't think the 'they'll be faster at everything' hype came from them, in fact this basically seems to have come from people misunderstanding the point of them. So I don't think physicists have anything to answer for on this, only perhaps pop-sci writers (most of whom don't think have claimed such a thing either).

Re: Fundamental physics is dying? [video]

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on your reference coordinate system, space is transformed. That is the entire point of relativity theory. You might be misunderstanding things here.

Coordinates are transformed, not the actual space. Objects are length-contracted due to the electric field being length contracted.

You seem to be of the same opinion as Sabine when it comes down to distinguishing between mathematical modelling, and reality. In mathematics though, coordinate transformation and space transformation are the same thing. How that plays out for the actual physics happening, might be a different thing, but note that you still describe it mathematically.

Re: Fundamental physics is dying? [video]

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to discuss whether sabine is making argument in bad faith or not. Or if she us just cherry picking claims from couple of researchers among thousands working/ed on LHC. But it is inaccurate to say the LHC is built to search for supersymmetry. The original motivation for LHC was Higgs search, we didn't have enough energy in Tevatron so people proposed LHC. There are other motivations like studying dark mat…

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think you might be inadvertently side-stepping my point. My argument was not about whether the LHC should have been built. It was about whether or not it was a valid justification put forward. I think the LHC should have been built. And while I can't say for sure, I'm pretty sure Sabine would as well. I think in that same video she calls out that it was built for the Higgs, so no d…

Sorry but how does it constitute a false justification? The short version of the proposal to build LHC was that

" We would like to construct a machine to reach the energy scale we can't currently reach with Tevatron. This will allow us to discover Higgs boson the last building block of standard model and in the process allow us to do other things like study b physics, Quark-Glouns interactions and maybe could find some low mass particles from SUSY and or other beyond standard model theories."

Most of the goals are either achieved (with the main on being higgs Higgs) or being studied now (remember particle physics is not about unification only) but we failed to see some of things we said we could have seen.

Sorry I have hard time believing that sabine is not cherry picking and twisting facts to support her claims. I don't want to go into attacking personalities and I don't have something with sabine other than her constant stream of unfounded claims about particle physics.

Re: Fundamental physics is dying? [video]

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think you might be inadvertently side-stepping my point. My argument was not about whether the LHC should have been built. It was about whether or not it was a valid justification put forward. I think the LHC should have been built. And while I can't say for sure, I'm pretty sure Sabine would as well. I think in that same video she calls out that it was built for the Higgs, so no d…

Sorry but how does it constitute a false justification? The short version of the proposal to build LHC was that " We would like to construct a machine to reach the energy scale we can't currently reach with Tevatron. This will allow us to discover Higgs boson the last building block of standard model and in the process allow us to do other things like study b physics, Quark-Glouns interactions and maybe could find so…

Again you are focusing on something separate from the point I'm discussing. It's is not a question of whether the LHC should have been built. It is also not about whether there were other reasons to build the LHC. I stated that in my initial post - and both of your follow ups have been about that. That is not the topic I (or she) is calling out.

The topic is that of science in general. Falsifiability of theories and arguments in good faith. Most specifically *one* of the numerous reasons provided for the LHC was X. Many people made that argument. That argument was false. People who made the argument either knew it was false or should have known. That is the issue being discussed. Not whether there were other valid reasons to build the LHC - or if those reasons were successful.

It's a bit of hyperbole but it's the equivalent of "lying under oath" to get a conviction. It doesn't matter if the defendant was guilty - and that they were ultimately convicted. It's not ok to "lie under oath" to try to put them behind bars. That is her argument. An expert witness either lied under oath (or was so wrong they shouldn't be considered an expert going forward). And the "courts" should acknowledge and address that. The fact that all of the other experts that all knew he was wrong said nothing is very notable. And we should really address it before that expert witness goes and testifies in another case. All if this is entirely independent of whether the defendant was guilty (which is the point you are raising).

Your argument is "the defendant was guilty, and here is all of this evidence they were guilty. Why are you picking this one expert and their evidence?". And I'm saying it's not about whether the defendant was guilty. That expert is being called out because either they were extremely wrong to the point they shouldn't be an expert, or they knowingly gave false testimony. And in both cases, the other experts in the room who as well knew it he was wrong all remained silent - and did so likely because it benefitted them.

Re: Fundamental physics is dying? [video]

#230
I'm way too late for this to be meaningful, but here's what I think! tl;dr -- gravity is the problem, we should focus on experiments and observations for a while, bring in some better mathematics, and continue the long range program of developing quantum theories that include or even produce GR.

I'm just a physics enthusiast. When I became interested in physics, I was initially a sort of partisan in the "realist" camp -- pro Einstein, anti Bohr; liked Verlinde's entropic gravity, distrusted the graviton -- but have come full circle to the opposite view. GR has massive explanatory and predictive power, and an extremely satisfying aesthetic quality, but obviously breaks down behind the curtain of a black hole's event horizon, where we cannot make observations. I say obviously because it predicts a singularity, which is just another way of saying it makes no prediction at all. On the other hand, many of my complaints about QM I now look at as unanswered questions, opportunities for inquiry. QM is based 100% on experimental observations. The theory came together in a rather ad hoc fashion at the beginning of the last century, but as it was more carefully studied theoretically and experimentally, also proved to be highly predictive, even more that GR. Yes there are big ugly, outstanding questions -- measurement collapse, the transition from microscopic quantum behavior to macroscopic classical behavior, the intractability of all but the simplest calculations -- but those are huge areas of knowledge that the future will gradually (or suddenly) fill in, as our understanding moves forward.

So, gravity, not QM, is the problem. We should start with the axioms of quantum mechanics, and look for ways to observe where QM and GR can be measured at the same time. LIGO offers opportunities like this, as the sensitivity of the instrument is well within the quantum regime. Continued study of QCD could make a testable prediction for what exists inside of a black hole. Or continue to study the very fine transitions between energy levels in the nucleus. Mathematically, maybe the Langlands program, with its rather weird, Fourier-like sums of L functions will allow us to model non-linear behavior.

And yes, string theory sort of "jumped the shark" at some point. I'm sure Ed Witten regrets saying that other pursuits were a waste of time. But the thing is, the string theory program is centered on QM, and has shown that QM can naturally produce GR, given certain unrealistic assumptions. That's mathematical progress.

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