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Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

theguardian.com

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Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#21

Post by bitcurious »

usehackernews wrote: post #18
bitcurious wrote: post #3

Columbus was famously a devout catholic; his DNA suggests that he was of Sephardic Jewish descent, most likely from a family that underwent a forced conversion.

There are indications he may have been raised Jewish, and later converted to Catholicism. Or, converted but still close to Judaism. His choice to set sail for the New World on August 2, 1492, the exact date ordained for the expulsion of Jews from Spain does suggest he may have not converted yet. Further, It's also known that the family profession was weaving, a traditionally Jewish profession at the time and that Jew…

> His choice to set sail for the New World on August 2, 1492, the exact date ordained for the expulsion of Jews from Spain does suggest he may have not converted yet.

This is one of the least compelling pieces of evidence: one doesn’t set out for a cross-oceanic voyage on a whim. He had sponsorship from the Spanish crown and lobbied and prepared for years for the journey. His journey was formally sanctioned by the the royal family in April of the year he left.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#22

Post by ywvcbk »

bbor wrote: post #17
bitcurious wrote: post #3

Columbus was famously a devout catholic; his DNA suggests that he was of Sephardic Jewish descent, most likely from a family that underwent a forced conversion.

I already posted below, but since you probably won't scroll down and I hate to see people get tricked: I would take this article with a massive grain of salt. Not "definitely wrong", but perhaps "of very dubious origin, making unusually strong claims based on unpublished, inconsistently-described evidence". For context, the "Columbus was Jewish" assertion is part of a broader "Columbus was secretly Spanish/Catalonian…

> AFAIK they welcomed converts with open arms (especially Muslim ones),

While that was seemingly true in the 1400s when ex-Jewish Conversos had sometimes significant economic and even political power. That had changed by the 1500s, antisemitism (same applying to Muslim converts) became much more focused on race and not just religion.

Conversos and Moriscos were persecuted and discriminated culminating in the expulsion of 1609 (which targeted hundreds of thousands of people who had technically been Christians for the past ~100 years).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limpieza_de_sangre

In some cases it was pretty extreme and not that dissimilar to the one-drop rule in the US (and the decentralized pseudo-segregation wasn’t that dissimilar either).

Descendants of Jewish and Muslim converts were even banned from emigrating into the American Colonies a few decades after Columbus.

It likely wasn’t as bad yet in the 1490s but had Columbus Jewish origin (assume that’s actually true) been know he probably would have faced significant barriers in holding political office or even attracting investment for his expeditions.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#23

Post by ywvcbk »

usehackernews wrote: post #18
bitcurious wrote: post #3

Columbus was famously a devout catholic; his DNA suggests that he was of Sephardic Jewish descent, most likely from a family that underwent a forced conversion.

There are indications he may have been raised Jewish, and later converted to Catholicism. Or, converted but still close to Judaism. His choice to set sail for the New World on August 2, 1492, the exact date ordained for the expulsion of Jews from Spain does suggest he may have not converted yet. Further, It's also known that the family profession was weaving, a traditionally Jewish profession at the time and that Jew…

> His choice to set sail for the New World on August 2, 1492,

He could have just moved to Italy or the Low Countries?

> does suggest he may have not converted yet.

And he did while he was in the Americas? Why would the Castilian crown sponsor an expedition led by a known Jew and even make him governor of the newly discovered territories (note that in a few decades even converted descendants of Jews or Muslims were banned from emigrating to the new world after a few decades)

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#24

Post by ywvcbk »

lolinder wrote: post #20
usehackernews wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are indications he may have been raised Jewish, and later converted to Catholicism. Or, converted but still close to Judaism. His choice to set sail for the New World on August 2, 1492, the exact date ordained for the expulsion of Jews from Spain does suggest he may have not converted yet. Further, It's also known that the family profession was weaving, a traditionally Jewish profession at the time and that Jew…

> the exact date ordained for the expulsion of Jews from Spain This came up in another part of the thread, but it wasn't the exact date—the decree gave Jews until the end of July [0], while August 3 (not second) is the date he sailed. It's still close enough that it may have been related, but it's not the slam dunk that "the exact date" makes it sound like it is. [0] https://www.fau.edu/artsandletters/pjhr/chhre/pdf/…

Why would anyone ever think that it could have been anything but a coincidence?

Who would have sponsored his expedition knowing that Columbus would be legally banned from entering the country if he was successful? That just seems silly…

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#25

Post by ywvcbk »

kamikazeturtles wrote: post #5

The Spanish inquisition began in the 1470s so it makes sense he would hide his ethnicity. What's really interesting however, is how the same year Columbus sailed the ocean blue, 1492, was when the Ottoman Empire accepted 60,000 Jewish refugees from Spain. Columbus must not have been very religious. It would've probably been a much smarter decision, in terms of self preservation, to move to the Ottoman Empire.

> r, is how the same year Columbus sailed the ocean blue, 1492,

How could that be related in any way? Presumably his investors did hope he would return and be allowed to enter the country?

> Columbus must not have been very religious

He was. As far as we can tell he was a very devout Catholic. Even if he had some Jewish origin (e.g. his grand/great grandparents were converts) that must have been a closely concealed secret and certainly not something that was publicly known.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#26

Post by ywvcbk »

afavour wrote: post #10
kamikazeturtles wrote: post #5

The Spanish inquisition began in the 1470s so it makes sense he would hide his ethnicity. What's really interesting however, is how the same year Columbus sailed the ocean blue, 1492, was when the Ottoman Empire accepted 60,000 Jewish refugees from Spain. Columbus must not have been very religious. It would've probably been a much smarter decision, in terms of self preservation, to move to the Ottoman Empire.

> Columbus must not have been very religious. He was incredibly religious. In his Catholicism. If anything this is just proof that reading too deeply, and especially solely, into anyone’s DNA history is a mistake. Plenty of people have a background unrelated to their lives or the way they perceive themselves.

> He was incredibly religious. In his Catholicism

Possibly as a way to conceal his background? Of course that’s pure speculation and it wasn’t as bad yet until later in the the 1500s but Spain became an extremely racist society, people who couldn’t prove that they weren’t descendants of Jewish or Muslim converts were often barred from holding political office or even testify in court etc.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limpieza_de_sangre#:~:text=O....

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#27

Post by ywvcbk »

someotherperson wrote: post #19
afavour wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Columbus must not have been very religious. He was incredibly religious. In his Catholicism. If anything this is just proof that reading too deeply, and especially solely, into anyone’s DNA history is a mistake. Plenty of people have a background unrelated to their lives or the way they perceive themselves.

It adds a wild irony to the story considering he's responsible for the expansion of the Spanish and introduced Catholicism to an entire continent. Someone who was punished by the Spanish and forced to convert a generation or two ago turns into its champion and spreads it elsewhere?

He and his son would have faced severe discrimination, wouldn’t even be allowed to hold public office and technically his descendants wouldn’t even emigrate to the Americans had it been publicly known that he was a descendant of Jewish converts (regardless of his religious views).

Surely that’s something the Spanish Crown would have used in the courtroom, considering that his descendants were engaged in a ~20 year lawsuit against the crown (which they won)?

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#28

Post by ywvcbk »

fsckboy wrote: post #14

technical who-is-a-Jew type question, which is thoroughly intertwingled with European history: the Jewish diaspora were only the diaspora after they were kicked out of Israel by the Romans (in something like 70AD), and even then, only after they maintained their identity in the diaspora (c.f. the majority of other conquered peoples who did not maintain an independent identity) Before that they were just the Jews, whi…

> out occurred at exactly the same time that Columbus sailed for the East (by going west).

Which is notable why exactly? Surely both Columbus and his investors were hoping to return.

Who would give all that money to a descendant of Jewish converts let alone someone who might have been affected by the expulsion decree directly?

Columbus might have had Jewish ancestors a few generations back but I don’t think we can conclude anything else based on these findings. Especially not that he or his parents were actually practicing Jews.

Re: Christopher Columbus may have been Spanish and Jewish, documentary says

#30

Post by profsummergig »

> “The DNA indicates that Christopher Columbus’s origin lay in the western Mediterranean,” said the researcher. “If there weren’t Jews in Genoa in the 15th century, the likelihood that he was from there is minimal. Neither was there a big Jewish presence in the rest of the Italian peninsula, which makes things very tenuous.”

Does anyone else think that this is a poorly argued piece?

Being Jewish, and having some Jewish DNA: are they the same thing? Is it not possible that many many people in Genoa could have had Jewish ancestors? After all, most of Jesus's disciples were Jewish (please correct me if I'm wrong).

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