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Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

mcc-berlin.net

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Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#271

Post by lotsofpulp »

dreadlordbone wrote: post #268
postpawl wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Focusing on the cost-per-tonne for carbon reduction misses the broader value of railways. They're not just about reducing emission! They facilitate daily commutes, expand job opportunities, and help drive the economy. It’s a subsidy for businesses too.

Doesn't having a car do this too?

Cars destroy walkability, cyclability, ability for kids to freely play outside, enable sprawl (hence more energy consumption hence more carbon emissions).

There’s no free lunch with using more surface area, which cars greatly expand people’s ability to consume.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#272

Post by dreadlordbone »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #271
dreadlordbone wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't having a car do this too?

Cars destroy walkability, cyclability, ability for kids to freely play outside, enable sprawl (hence more energy consumption hence more carbon emissions). There’s no free lunch with using more surface area, which cars greatly expand people’s ability to consume.

That's a goalpost moved from my response.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#273

Post by okr »

immibis wrote: post #262
Barrin92 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The same word applies to roads that do not pay for themselves through gas tax and/or tolls. I'm German and I can tell you it really does not. Like in a lot of countries car infrastructure is treated like the state of nature, it's just somehow there, and the infrastructure burden of parking, road construction and what have you isn't a topic. It's the 'default culture' and the support it gets is just the status quo, w…

The far-right Berlin government is currently doing its darnedest to build the most expensive highway in all of Germany, that nobody actually wants, through a cultural area. Probably because their friend owns the highway construction company.

Oh please, far-right? It is leftists, that sees everything beside them as far-right. I would call it conservative. Something the 'left' forgets, that there are also some real people, who do not want to pay for the leftist dreamworld. Yuck.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#274

Post by ch0wn »

jdietrich wrote: post #76

Providing these €49 tickets requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn, on top of already substantial subsidies for the rail industry. If we accept that it reduces carbon emissions by 6.7 million tonnes per year, then that works out to €447 per tonne. That really isn't good value - most carbon abatement methods cost well under $100 per tonne. I do recognise that modal shift towards rail may have other positive externa…

Show me an effective carbon abatement method well under $100.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#275

Post by lotsofpulp »

dreadlordbone wrote: post #272
lotsofpulp wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars destroy walkability, cyclability, ability for kids to freely play outside, enable sprawl (hence more energy consumption hence more carbon emissions). There’s no free lunch with using more surface area, which cars greatly expand people’s ability to consume.

That's a goalpost moved from my response.

The poster you responded to wrote:

> They're not just about reducing emission!

Cars increasing emissions seems to be a relevant disqualifier.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#276

Post by eertami »

dreadlordbone wrote: post #268
postpawl wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Focusing on the cost-per-tonne for carbon reduction misses the broader value of railways. They're not just about reducing emission! They facilitate daily commutes, expand job opportunities, and help drive the economy. It’s a subsidy for businesses too.

Doesn't having a car do this too?

Anecdotally, I frequently take day (or weekend) trips to other European cities by rail. It is usually quicker than the roads but also crucially you can be productive on the train. If I had to drive my car there then I probably wouldn't bother.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#277

Post by dpe82 »

dreadlordbone wrote: post #268
postpawl wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Focusing on the cost-per-tonne for carbon reduction misses the broader value of railways. They're not just about reducing emission! They facilitate daily commutes, expand job opportunities, and help drive the economy. It’s a subsidy for businesses too.

Doesn't having a car do this too?

Having a car also entails massive subsidies; when taking that into account the all-in costs per unit traveled are basically always cheaper with rail.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#278

Post by clukic »

jdietrich wrote: post #76

Providing these €49 tickets requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn, on top of already substantial subsidies for the rail industry. If we accept that it reduces carbon emissions by 6.7 million tonnes per year, then that works out to €447 per tonne. That really isn't good value - most carbon abatement methods cost well under $100 per tonne. I do recognise that modal shift towards rail may have other positive externa…

You're not pricing in the primary impact of the subsidy - the value of the travel itself. Those tickets subsidize travel and reduce carbon emissions.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#279

Post by postpawl »

dreadlordbone wrote: post #268
postpawl wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Focusing on the cost-per-tonne for carbon reduction misses the broader value of railways. They're not just about reducing emission! They facilitate daily commutes, expand job opportunities, and help drive the economy. It’s a subsidy for businesses too.

Doesn't having a car do this too?

Trains scale better than cars in dense areas and offer more than just emissions reductions. Good rail infrastructure is a big part of makes a large city world-class and improves everyday lives. Subsidizing trains is better than a lot of other uses of government funds.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#280

Post by layer8 »

dreadlordbone wrote: post #268
postpawl wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Focusing on the cost-per-tonne for carbon reduction misses the broader value of railways. They're not just about reducing emission! They facilitate daily commutes, expand job opportunities, and help drive the economy. It’s a subsidy for businesses too.

Doesn't having a car do this too?

A car is more expensive, and clogs the roads, which causes other costs to the economy and penalizes commutes.
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