Are retrocomputers best left on or off? • Hacker News Board

Re: Are retrocomputers best left on or off?

#41

Post by Moru » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 7:32 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #24

emersonrsantos wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but in many cases, it's not the integrated circuits (ICs) that fail, because they tend to be quite reliable. It's more often the capacitors, resistors, storage devices and power supply components that degrade over time. Capacitors, in particular, can fail due to heat, aging, or voltage surges, which can lead to failure in devices even if the ICs are still in good condition. Power sources can also fail du…

I've seen enough electronics repair videos that it seems the default for troubleshooting absent other conspicuous damage is to start checking the electrolytic capacitors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

There was a time when Gigabyte started selling more robust motherboards with quality capacitors that would last much longer. After seeing so many old motherboards dying from blown capacitors I was very happy to get one. Those motherboards so far held the full length of their meaningfull life until the CPU just got too slow to use for anything. Still try to look for that type of capacitors when I build new stuff for friends and family.

The Gigabyte line is called "Ultra Durable" and have solid capacitors instead of the electrolyte ones.

Re: Are retrocomputers best left on or off?

#42

Post by RF_Savage » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 7:36 AM UTC

iwaztomack wrote: post #32

I have a 42 year old apple //e that had been in an uninsulated attic in Boston for 30+ years. It booted fine and all the 5 1/4" floppies worked. I know that C64s need the caps replaced and the org external power supplies can catch fire. I'd be really surprised if 1990's pcs failed. There was a period of transition to non-lead solder where many pcbs from that era suffered shorts from whiskering but everything else sho…

1990's PC's have Varta bios batteries soldered on that leak and destroy the motherboard. Or they have Dallas real time clocks with dead batteries.

Re: Are retrocomputers best left on or off?

#43

Post by raverbashing » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 7:45 AM UTC

dr_kiszonka wrote: post #6

raverbashing wrote: post #4

Honestly emulators work better than the real thing 99% of the time, so I don't feel the need to play with flaky and dusty 30yr old hardware

Yeah, but they don't emulate the smells, the sound of fans spinning up and the gentle breeze they generate, the beeps and boops, the tick tick tick hard drives make, the long travel of keys on that old keyboard with a slightly sticky shift (gotta be from that coffee I spilled in '97).

These were all very nice, and reminiscent of the time

Then you remember you need to install Windows 9x or 2000 on it and the CD-ROM reader is kinda flaky, and you barely can download anything with IE 6, so now you would need an TLS bridge or use a usb-drive. Oh yeah and don't forget you need a small partition formatted on FAT32

Re: Are retrocomputers best left on or off?

#44

Post by notjulianjaynes » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 8:17 AM UTC

ssl-3 wrote: post #34

notjulianjaynes wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once made some rosin for soldering by dissolving the stuff made from tree sap for stringed instruments in isopropyl alcohol, and I think this is pretty close to the smell you're after. Fairly certain it's still not ideal to inhale the fumes from it, but it must be at least slightly less harmful than additionally vaporizing some heavy metals. (This works reasonably well as flux for through hole sized components, pos…

Lead does not evaporate at the temperatures used for soldering.

Is that true, I have always heard that a tiny bit of lead is in the fumes. Either way I still think that one should avoid breathing soldering fumes as a general rule, no matter how pleasant they may smell.

Re: Are retrocomputers best left on or off?

#45

Post by hi-v-rocknroll » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 8:36 AM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #4

Honestly emulators work better than the real thing 99% of the time, so I don't feel the need to play with flaky and dusty 30yr old hardware

Real hardware is still necessary to verify functional equivalency and correctness.

Also, there's no way you're going to emulate an interlaced or noninterlaced analog SVGA display, especially the sounds of mode changing, tearing, proper vsync, palette cycling, or setting the border color. Or MIDI music as it came from an AdLib, Roland, SB, or a GUS.

Re: Are retrocomputers best left on or off?

#46

Post by hi-v-rocknroll » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 8:38 AM UTC

parpfish wrote: post #21

dr_kiszonka wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but they don't emulate the smells, the sound of fans spinning up and the gentle breeze they generate, the beeps and boops, the tick tick tick hard drives make, the long travel of keys on that old keyboard with a slightly sticky shift (gotta be from that coffee I spilled in '97).

I miss the scraping hard drive noises with a flickering “HDD” light and a mysterious “Turbo” indicator when my 90s PC had to work hard

Turbo was all about slowing down a 486-/Pentium-class machine to work with programs and some ISA cards that required a slower CPU and/or XT bus speeds.

Re: Are retrocomputers best left on or off?

#47

Post by nrdvana » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 8:41 AM UTC

masswerk wrote: post #3

My two cents: If we are talking about 1970s and '80s machines, they tend to run pretty hot, related to the PSU technology. Things like electrolytic capacitors "don't like this" and may contribute to cascading failures. PSU failures are apt to fry some chips, some of which may be hard to come by. So, better keep them cool = off. If you consider machines from the 2000s retro, continuous run, avoiding the stresses cause…

I've read that electrolytic caps dry out faster if they aren't holding a charge. Temperature is a concern, but I have a surprising number of devices that worked fine before I left them unplugged for a few years and then didn't work when I powered them back up.

Re: Are retrocomputers best left on or off?

#48

Post by speed_spread » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 8:41 AM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #4

Honestly emulators work better than the real thing 99% of the time, so I don't feel the need to play with flaky and dusty 30yr old hardware

Some machines do not have emulators. Notably, most SGI workstations have custom hardware that's poorly documented and very complex.

Re: Are retrocomputers best left on or off?

#49

Post by nrdvana » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 8:51 AM UTC

iwaztomack wrote: post #32

I have a 42 year old apple //e that had been in an uninsulated attic in Boston for 30+ years. It booted fine and all the 5 1/4" floppies worked. I know that C64s need the caps replaced and the org external power supplies can catch fire. I'd be really surprised if 1990's pcs failed. There was a period of transition to non-lead solder where many pcbs from that era suffered shorts from whiskering but everything else sho…

My understanding is that every electrolytic cap will eventually dry out. The capacitance drifts as this happens, so the quality of the cap and the sensitivity of the circuit to incorrect capacitance will greatly affect how long it takes for the device to fail. The late 90s was also when a large quantity of low-quality electrolytic caps were manufactured.

Re: Are retrocomputers best left on or off?

#50

Post by guenthert » Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 10:19 AM UTC

iwaztomack wrote: post #32

I have a 42 year old apple //e that had been in an uninsulated attic in Boston for 30+ years. It booted fine and all the 5 1/4" floppies worked. I know that C64s need the caps replaced and the org external power supplies can catch fire. I'd be really surprised if 1990's pcs failed. There was a period of transition to non-lead solder where many pcbs from that era suffered shorts from whiskering but everything else sho…

I recently turned on a PC some ten years old which was in storage for five years. First time it turned on, but had difficulties booting due to the M.2 SSD from Intel being corrupt. Second time, it failed to turn on (but some LEDs on the MB indicated that there was still some power), fans not spinning. Third time, it did start again, but the fans at full speed and fan control not working anymore. It seems the lubricant of the fan's bearing dried up and made them hard to spin to the point that the in-rush current exceeded the capacity of the fan-control chip.

Fortunately, those beige^black boxes hold no sentimental value whatsoever and will be replaced with something better at a convenient time. Before turning on something more rare, I'd inspect the MB visually for corrosion, bloated caps and test the fans and disk drives externally.