John Carmack on inlined code (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: John Carmack on inlined code (2014)

#241

Post by SoftTalker » Wed, Oct 09, 2024, 5:23 PM UTC

mihaic wrote: post #2

When I first heard the maxim that an intelligent person should be able to hold two opposing thoughts at the same time, I was naive to think it meant weighing them for pros and cons. Over time I realized that it means balancing contradictory actions, and the main purpose of experience is knowing when to apply each. Concretely related to the topic, I've often found myself inlining short pieces of one-time code that mad…

> other times I'll spend days just breaking up thousand line functions into simpler blocks just to be able to follow what's going on

Absolutely, I'll break up a long block of code into several functions, even if there is nowhere else they will be called, just to make things easier to understand (and potentially easier to test). If a function or procedure does not fit on one screen, I will almost always break it up.

Obviously "one screen" is an approximation, not all screens/windows are the same size, but in practice for me this is about 20-30 lines.

Re: John Carmack on inlined code (2014)

#242

Post by astrobe_ » Wed, Oct 09, 2024, 5:27 PM UTC

pragma_x wrote: post #212

VyseofArcadia wrote: post #156

> That was a cold-sweat moment for me: after all of my harping about latency and responsiveness, I almost shipped a title with a completely unnecessary frame of latency. In this era of 3-5 frame latency being the norm (at least on e.g. the Nintendo Switch), I really appreciate a game developer having anxiety over a single frame.

To be fair, back in 2014 that was one frame at 60Hz or slower for some titles. At 80-120Hz, 3-5 frames is comparatively similar time.

I've heard that a good reaction time is around 200 ms, some experiments seem to confirm this figure [1]. At 60Hz, a frame is displayed every 17 ms.

So it would take a 12 frames animation and a trained gamer for a couple of frames to make a difference (e.g. push the right button before the animation ends and the opponent's action takes effect).

[1] https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics

Re: John Carmack on inlined code (2014)

#243

Post by tightbookkeeper » Wed, Oct 09, 2024, 5:31 PM UTC

Ono-Sendai wrote: post #186

tightbookkeeper wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are willing to make code worse to micro optimize compile times (not even sure this is true) then you should not use any modern language with complex type checking (rust, swift, C#, etc).

Writing a medium to large program in C++, you really need to fight long compile times or they can get out of hand. That affects the way you write code quite a lot, or it should at least. I've heard Rust and Swift also suffer from long compile times.

Agreed.

But For C++ template combinatorics are going to dominate any slow down due to function length.

Re: John Carmack on inlined code (2014)

#244

Post by underdeserver » Wed, Oct 09, 2024, 5:34 PM UTC

astrobe_ wrote: post #242

pragma_x wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, back in 2014 that was one frame at 60Hz or slower for some titles. At 80-120Hz, 3-5 frames is comparatively similar time.

I've heard that a good reaction time is around 200 ms, some experiments seem to confirm this figure [1]. At 60Hz, a frame is displayed every 17 ms. So it would take a 12 frames animation and a trained gamer for a couple of frames to make a difference (e.g. push the right button before the animation ends and the opponent's action takes effect). [1] https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics

I'm not sure this is the right way to look at it. I can't find stats right now, but I recall reading top players making frame-perfect moves in games like Smash Bros. Melee and Rocket League.

Re: John Carmack on inlined code (2014)

#245

Post by munificent » Wed, Oct 09, 2024, 5:38 PM UTC

pragma_x wrote: post #212

VyseofArcadia wrote: post #156

> That was a cold-sweat moment for me: after all of my harping about latency and responsiveness, I almost shipped a title with a completely unnecessary frame of latency. In this era of 3-5 frame latency being the norm (at least on e.g. the Nintendo Switch), I really appreciate a game developer having anxiety over a single frame.

To be fair, back in 2014 that was one frame at 60Hz or slower for some titles. At 80-120Hz, 3-5 frames is comparatively similar time.

Why would you even bother running at a game at 120Hz if the user's response to what's being drawn is effectively 24-30 FPS?

Re: John Carmack on inlined code (2014)

#246

Post by philistine » Wed, Oct 09, 2024, 5:49 PM UTC

underdeserver wrote: post #244

astrobe_ wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that a good reaction time is around 200 ms, some experiments seem to confirm this figure [1]. At 60Hz, a frame is displayed every 17 ms. So it would take a 12 frames animation and a trained gamer for a couple of frames to make a difference (e.g. push the right button before the animation ends and the opponent's action takes effect). [1] https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics

I'm not sure this is the right way to look at it. I can't find stats right now, but I recall reading top players making frame-perfect moves in games like Smash Bros. Melee and Rocket League.

Frame perfect moves are exceedingly common in most top fields. Just watch any video about the latest speedruns.

The thing with latency is it needs to be consistent. If your latency is between 3 to 5 frames you blew it because you can't guarantee the same experience on every button press. If you always have 3 frames of latency, with modern screens, analog controls, and game design aware of those limitations, that's much better. Look at modern games like Celeste, who has introduced Coyote Time to account for all the latency of our modern hardware.

Re: John Carmack on inlined code (2014)

#247

Post by philistine » Wed, Oct 09, 2024, 5:51 PM UTC

VyseofArcadia wrote: post #231

01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think high frame rates are common outside of PC gaming yet. Wikipedia indicates the Switch maxes out at 1080p60, and the newest Zelda only at 900p30 even when docked https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Switch

I believe both the PS5 and whatever nonsense string of Xs, numbers, and descriptors MS named this gen's console can do 144Hz output. I don't know how many games take advantage of that or whether that refresh rate is common on TVs.

60 FPS isn't even promised on PS5 Pro. Most graphically demanding titles still aim for 30 FPS on consoles, with any game able to support 60 FPS consistently worth noting.

Re: John Carmack on inlined code (2014)

#248

Post by dang » Wed, Oct 09, 2024, 5:51 PM UTC

mindsuck wrote: post #7

rossant wrote: post #4

(2014)

First discussed here back then: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8374345

Thanks! Macroexpanded:

John Carmack on Inlined Code - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39008678 - Jan 2024 (2 comments)

John Carmack on Inlined Code (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33679163 - Nov 2022 (1 comment)

John Carmack on Inlined Code (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25263488 - Dec 2020 (169 comments)

John Carmack on Inlined Code (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18959636 - Jan 2019 (105 comments)

John Carmack on Inlined Code (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14333115 - May 2017 (2 comments)

John Carmack on Inlined Code (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12120752 - July 2016 (199 comments)

John Carmack on Inlined Code - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8374345 - Sept 2014 (260 comments)

Re: John Carmack on inlined code (2014)

#249

Post by dang » Wed, Oct 09, 2024, 5:52 PM UTC

John Carmack on Inlined Code (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33679163 - Nov 2022 (1 comment)

John Carmack on Inlined Code (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25263488 - Dec 2020 (169 comments)

John Carmack on Inlined Code (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18959636 - Jan 2019 (105 comments)

John Carmack on Inlined Code (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14333115 - May 2017 (2 comments)

John Carmack on Inlined Code (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12120752 - July 2016 (199 comments)

John Carmack on Inlined Code - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8374345 - Sept 2014 (260 comments)

Re: John Carmack on inlined code (2014)

#250

Post by chandler5555 » Wed, Oct 09, 2024, 5:52 PM UTC

pragma_x wrote: post #212

VyseofArcadia wrote: post #156

> That was a cold-sweat moment for me: after all of my harping about latency and responsiveness, I almost shipped a title with a completely unnecessary frame of latency. In this era of 3-5 frame latency being the norm (at least on e.g. the Nintendo Switch), I really appreciate a game developer having anxiety over a single frame.

To be fair, back in 2014 that was one frame at 60Hz or slower for some titles. At 80-120Hz, 3-5 frames is comparatively similar time.

yeah but when people talk about input lag for consoles its generally still in the 60hz sense, rare for games to be 120hz

smash brothers ultimate for example runs at 60fps and has 5-6 frames of input lag