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Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

theguardian.com

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Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#21

Post by throw3638 »

pyrale wrote: post #19
myrmidon wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we are just talking past each other. What I mean by "hiring for diversity" is that the business has some DEI goals, like "more female software devs" and lets those influence its hiring decisions. As soon as you have gender/race distribution goals that deviate from your candidate stream, you have to make hiring decisions that discriminate against your otherwise "most capable candidate", or you're not gonna reach…

> As soon as you have gender/race distribution goals that deviate from your candidate stream, you have to make hiring decisions that discriminate against your otherwise "most capable candidate" The issue with this logic is that you assume the candidate stream can't be changed/expanded. An example of a business decision that could be influenced by DEI hiring: rather than doing the usual outreach programs only to the u…

[flagged]

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#22

Post by sorasoraflora »

pyrale wrote: post #20
sorasoraflora wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That claim seems the more intuitive understanding - if candidates are judged entirely by capability and fit for a role, then background wouldn't factor in. If diversity tips the scales toward a candidate that would have been otherwise passed over then ability is no longer the highest priority. If this understanding is flawed, could you explain how?

There are more parameters than just changing the evaluation method applied on a fixed pool of candidates.

Could you please go into more detail? I'm not sure what you mean by that. I'm not trying to argue, I just want to understand.

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#23

Post by tombert »

lynx23 wrote: post #2

Rather longwinded personal intro, followed by due to the war, my grandma was allowed to become a dentist without actually going to medical school! YAY! What a horror story.

Very tangential, but interesting enough story:

My dad grew up the youngest in a relatively poor family in Montana with four kids and a father that drank most of their cash away. My dad really needed braces, but they couldn't afford to pay a dentist, so my grandmother got a part time job as a dental assistant and paid very close attention to the process of installing and removing braces.

After a few months, she "borrowed" the materials required for braces, and installed them on my dad, and removed them about a year later. Apparently it worked out fine, my dad's teeth are alright.

Obviously, things going "alright" is more a matter of luck than anything else: there's a reason that people go to dental school, and they were fortunate that there weren't any complications, but I always thought it was amusing that that's how my dad got his teeth straightened.

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#24

Post by myrmidon »

pyrale wrote: post #19
myrmidon wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we are just talking past each other. What I mean by "hiring for diversity" is that the business has some DEI goals, like "more female software devs" and lets those influence its hiring decisions. As soon as you have gender/race distribution goals that deviate from your candidate stream, you have to make hiring decisions that discriminate against your otherwise "most capable candidate", or you're not gonna reach…

> As soon as you have gender/race distribution goals that deviate from your candidate stream, you have to make hiring decisions that discriminate against your otherwise "most capable candidate" The issue with this logic is that you assume the candidate stream can't be changed/expanded. An example of a business decision that could be influenced by DEI hiring: rather than doing the usual outreach programs only to the u…

> rather than doing the usual outreach programs only to the usual universities, you could decide to turn stones that you wouldn't usually turn in order to find people you wouldn't usually find.

This reads to me "onesidedly relax hiring criteria to keep quota" and is exactly the kind of intervention into the hiring process that I expect to decrease average capability of new hires.

Sure, if your criteria themselves are bad in the first place (you are basically rejecting a huge pool of candidates randomly), it does not matter. But plenty of companies don't have a somewhat infinite stream of candidates that would be willing to relocate from across the world, and expanding that candidate stream has a very real cost for the business, too.

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#25

Post by Moomoomoo309 »

throw3638 wrote: post #13
pyrale wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument would be that if you hire for diversity, you are no longer hiring for capability first That claim is also hard to prove in the first place, but apparently people can just peddle it, and expect other people to do the hard work to debunk it. Usually, whenever you start asking people to justify that claim, you end up with an anecdote or two and, if you point out that anecdotal data don't make a point, per…

[flagged]

See, this is exactly what I was referring to. It's "obvious" that these things happen as a result of DEI, but you provide no evidence for it. Some anecdotes, sure, but I want to see how it plays out broadly - I'm sure there are cases where it's good and cases where it's bad if you just pick anecdotes from the data! I also think calling out censorship for this is lazy, to be honest. I really doubt a topic as contentious as DEI has no useful data to prove your point.

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#26

Post by pyrale »

myrmidon wrote: post #24
pyrale wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As soon as you have gender/race distribution goals that deviate from your candidate stream, you have to make hiring decisions that discriminate against your otherwise "most capable candidate" The issue with this logic is that you assume the candidate stream can't be changed/expanded. An example of a business decision that could be influenced by DEI hiring: rather than doing the usual outreach programs only to the u…

> rather than doing the usual outreach programs only to the usual universities, you could decide to turn stones that you wouldn't usually turn in order to find people you wouldn't usually find. This reads to me "onesidedly relax hiring criteria to keep quota" and is exactly the kind of intervention into the hiring process that I expect to decrease average capability of new hires. Sure, if your criteria themselves are…

Outreach programs typically don't influence the hiring decision. But they influence the stream of people that will try to get an internship at your company.

For instance, if you're a Stanford grad and keep strong ties with the alma mater, teachers there may say a word about you to their promising students, and you'll end up with more people from Stanford than from e.g. Yale. A DEI program could look to fix that by advertising your company to other venues.

> expanding that candidate stream has a very real cost for the business

I don't dispute that, but we've moved from "it would lead to worse hires" to "it would cost money to the company". If the company is willing to put $0 into the issue, business as usual is the only viable solution.

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#27

Post by throw3638 »

Moomoomoo309 wrote: post #25
throw3638 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

See, this is exactly what I was referring to. It's "obvious" that these things happen as a result of DEI, but you provide no evidence for it. Some anecdotes, sure, but I want to see how it plays out broadly - I'm sure there are cases where it's good and cases where it's bad if you just pick anecdotes from the data! I also think calling out censorship for this is lazy, to be honest. I really doubt a topic as contentio…

You assume we are having some sort of discussion. Like I say sken rational argument, you say something back, than I refute it... Nobody gets cancelled, or death threats...

> want to see how it plays out broadly - I'm sure there are cases where it's good

Old promise for DEI was to improve efficiency by unlocking potential in groups that could not work. Are there some data to suggest it is working? All I see is move from "equality" to "equity" bcos some people are just lazy.

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#28

Post by pyrale »

sorasoraflora wrote: post #22
pyrale wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more parameters than just changing the evaluation method applied on a fixed pool of candidates.

Could you please go into more detail? I'm not sure what you mean by that. I'm not trying to argue, I just want to understand.

I went more in depth in another reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41788460

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#29

Post by throw3638 »

supermatt wrote: post #16
watt wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That explains quite a lot about dentistry in USSR

Clearly you didn't read the article. The grandmother was in Poland.

It is called holocaust denial, and crime in many countries including Poland. A#hole!

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#30

Post by supermatt »

throw3638 wrote: post #29
supermatt wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly you didn't read the article. The grandmother was in Poland.

It is called holocaust denial, and crime in many countries including Poland. A#hole!

What are you on about? The GP said that it explains dentistry in the USSR - Poland wasn't in the USSR.
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