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Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

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Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#191

Post by j45 »

zo1 wrote: post #137
j45 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DEI is more about getting equally qualified candidates to the table that are ignored or missed. Yes that makes it more competitive. Or less-competitive at an advantage to some and both others if it stayed the same way.

Oh that may be the "on-paper" goal of DEI, and I'd be all for it if it stayed that way; it sounds very very fair. But it never stays that way, and quotas enter the picture before long.

Tricky and slippery rationalizations are something I try to be mindful of.

I put forward a single simple point. Since it's resonating in a response, it might be worth considering why, and see how our viewpoints form and how much of it might be rooted in isolating emotions like fear.

In discussing, an open mind to me is one that can openly entertain a viewpoint that isn't their own, and seeing if they're open to growing or changing their viewpoint.

Maybe.. the way your country does DEI is trying to do the opposite of the race based separation it did prior and doesn't know if any other levers exist?

One nice thing is you're inheriting the world and can help make it the way you think it should be instead of wanting to be a passive beneficiary of past gatekeeping baselines.

Hypothetically speaking... could openly entertain a viewpoint that isn't our own.. be similar to believing software could be better, if it was only improved, by trying to improve ourselves and building software better?

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#192

Post by [deleted] »

ewuhic wrote: post #54

How to fight back when you see this happening at line management level, but not yet proliferated to upper management? Indian product owner taking mostly to Indian peer developers, bypassing normal communication channels. Indians being friendly with each other and stone cold with the rest. Indians bringing Indian jokes to the table, with no outsider hoping to understand these. Indians bonding to go to Indian restauran…

[deleted]

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#193

Post by Cthulhu_ »

worthless-trash wrote: post #148
Rinzler89 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

There are only four things (US) do better than anyone else: music, movies, microcode (software), and high-speed pizza delivery. - Neal Stephenson

And most of those are being challenged... except maybe high-speed pizza delivery.

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#194

Post by n1b0m »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #154
loufe wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's an unfairly dismissive take and the "going to restaurants" bit is a mischaracterization at best. There massive difference is WHERE the discrimination is taking place. Most would not move to India or any other place and impose their culture and exclude locals in a fair and just world. I'm not saying it doesn't take place, and yes colonialism happened and was far worse, but we're talking about what SHOUL…

Actually you'll find that this happens a lot. Search up expat communities, for example. They don't necessarily "impose their culture and exclude locals", but they are for and by the expats from a certain country. Seeking "your" people when living/working abroad, or when working in a diverse workspace, is pretty normal and happens everywhere. It's usually harmless though.

Brits living in Spain is a classic example

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#195

Post by swasheck »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #73
ewuhic wrote: post #54

How to fight back when you see this happening at line management level, but not yet proliferated to upper management? Indian product owner taking mostly to Indian peer developers, bypassing normal communication channels. Indians being friendly with each other and stone cold with the rest. Indians bringing Indian jokes to the table, with no outsider hoping to understand these. Indians bonding to go to Indian restauran…

> Indians bringing Indian jokes to the table, with no outsider hoping to understand these. Indians bonding to go to Indian restaurants during lunch break, so now most of the colleagues follow suit, how to stop it all? Are you seriously asking how to "fight back" on Indians going to restaurants and joking with each other? As an Indian in a flyover state who has been routinely excluded from golfing events, and had my d…

i’m sorry for your experience(s) and how frustrating that must be. what you’ve experienced isn’t “right” and while it’s valid that you bring it up as a general concern and experience, it comes across as though you’re justifying how OP experiences their own work environment. as someone who has essentially experienced the same treatment, but from the opposite side, this is an opportunity you had to validate and confirm the presence of such behavior while expanding the scope of its presence. now we’re hung up on restaurants and golf courses and choosing sides instead of discussing the core problem

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#196

Post by zozbot234 »

39896880 wrote: post #179
quadrifoliate wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Indians bringing Indian jokes to the table, with no outsider hoping to understand these. Indians bonding to go to Indian restaurants during lunch break, so now most of the colleagues follow suit, how to stop it all? Are you seriously asking how to "fight back" on Indians going to restaurants and joking with each other? As an Indian in a flyover state who has been routinely excluded from golfing events, and had my d…

You seem to be fixating on the term "fight back," when the commenter you're replying to is asking for ways to not feel excluded at his/her job, where s/he spends a majority of his/her waking hours. As someone who has experienced this, I encourage you to draw on that experience and have empathy, even if that experience is expressed in ways that don't immediately resonate with you. You have more in common with the comm…

> [looking] for ways to not feel excluded at his/her job, where s/he spends a majority of his/her waking hours.

And the people GP is talking about are trying to do the exact same thing, though obviously in highly detrimental ways. Part of professionalism entails not making your job into an identity that overwhelms every other aspect of your life. If you just focus on delivering good results to the best of your ability, there's no need to be dependent on constant social approval from 'insider' peers.

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#197

Post by bakugo »

thinkingtoilet wrote: post #187
ewuhic wrote: post #54

How to fight back when you see this happening at line management level, but not yet proliferated to upper management? Indian product owner taking mostly to Indian peer developers, bypassing normal communication channels. Indians being friendly with each other and stone cold with the rest. Indians bringing Indian jokes to the table, with no outsider hoping to understand these. Indians bonding to go to Indian restauran…

Now imagine being a minority. You're white colleagues making white jokes. Hiring only white people. Going to white restaurants. Etc... I like when a privileged class gets a contact high of the real world for so many and can't handle it. Employment discrimination is one thing. Having friends and going to lunch is another. For the record, as a white man I've never met, in my entire life, a single Indian person who refu…

> You're white colleagues making white jokes. Hiring only white people. Going to white restaurants.

Pretty sure white people aren't mass immigrating to India and doing this there.

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#198

Post by sourcepluck »

the_gorilla wrote: post #175
quadrifoliate wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am just using a signature American phrase[1]. If anything, this is a mark of how assimilated I am! I mean no contempt; I am happy to live in a flyover state. Also, the state did not "allow me" to live here, the Federal Government did; as anyone with an elementary knowledge of American government principles should be able to discern. Your response though, seems to show some anti-immigrant anger. I am sorry you feel…

What do you think the word "Flyover" means? You live in it now, they let you in so you're not flying over it. It's obviously derogatory, and even your link says it's derogatory. That'd be like me going to India, and then complaining "As an American living next to untouchables..."

Here's the relevant quote from the wikipedia that you're misusing:

> The origins of the phrases and the attitudes of their supposed users are a source of debate in American culture; the terms are often regarded as pejoratives, but are sometimes "reclaimed" and used defensively.[1]

So no, it is not "obviously derogatory", and the link does not say that.

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#199

Post by the_gorilla »

j45 wrote: post #182
the_gorilla wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> DEI is more about getting equally qualified candidates to the table that are ignored or missed. This is the first time I've heard that. The normal party line is that, yes, they're worse at the job but it's because they never got the opportunity to learn. You can observe in colleges that DEI-appointed students do massively worse overall despite probably being given even more leeway than normal students.

Wow, ok. So that kind of idea is really completely new, so it can't be valid? I think it's pretty easy to go learn the spectrum of DEI. The world is generally run with gatekeeping, which means withholding access to opportunity to improve one's life to a selected group for a long time. It's possible that your country may codify gatekeeping and privilege, and the only way they may know how is to do the same thing in th…

> Wow, ok. So that kind of idea is really completely new, so it can't be valid?

Theoretically it could be, but you should be aware if your argument directly contradicts years of other people advocating for DEI. The idea being sold isn't "we need jobs to be more merit based" but "we don't have enough merit and have to discriminate".

> It's possible that your country may codify gatekeeping and privilege, and the only way they may know how is to do the same thing in the opposite way.

My country, the US, codifies that you're not allowed to racially discriminate. Somehow this doesn't stop people from declaring that we must explicitly perform racially discrimination in order to offset some perceived discrimination.

> The relevance of DEI shouldn't be held exclusively with its implementation at any given time, as long as it's improving. Kind of like software, maybe.

The relevance is that I'm a race it explicitly disadvantages, and so it my family. It's illegal, racial discrimination is apparently immoral when it's done to anyone else, and it needs to go.

> I'm not sure where your observation is based on - happy to learn and read from any studies though beyond anecdotal differences.

Go look at medical schools. High scoring Whites and Asians are about as likely to get in as extremely poorly performing Black students.

https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med1.jpg?x850...

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#200

Post by hggigg »

JohnBrookz wrote: post #44

This happened at intel and was very noticeable even back in 2010. Indians hires other Indians. At every company I’ve been at if you were not Indian you were not invited to the conversation. Sitting in meetings where you were excluded from 30% of the conversation was wild. I never felt like they were rude or anything though- just that I was an outsider. Best team I worked with was very diverse and they actively worked…

Same experience here.

On a positive note I got replaced by a guy in India. Then after a year of them clambering over each other’s corpses for promotion and destroying the org from the inside, I got hired back on contract to unfuck the mess at 4x my previous salaried rate.

Nothing against India or Indians but the reason outsourcing fails is no one wants to be an outsourced workforce so they go for promotion first to get a better job. And I don’t blame them.

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