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PHP Addiction

marco.org

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Re: PHP Addiction

#111

Post by RyantheLou »

So, I wouldn't really call myself a "programmer," because I'm a front-end web designer. I'm learning more and more web programming and I'm obviously using PHP. The main issue I see with languages like Ruby or Python for novices like me is that when you ask a novice (running on Windows) to go into the command line, that's like asking a cook to go milk cows. The cook will figure it out, but fuck you.

Sure, there's a learning curve to any new language, and I would love to learn a "better" language, but, if you can't explain to a novice why a certain language is better, the novice is going to go for the smallest learning curve and the language with the best/most ubiquitous documentation.

What do Python or Ruby do that PHP can't? Are they "faster?" I've heard that they are more secure, but does that mean that PHP can't be as secure if a skilled developer is coding for security? People say things like "rapid development," but I've been using CodeIgniter and it seems pretty rapid to me. What it all comes down to is this: are Ruby and Python "practical" for novice programmers like me? Truly? If not, then doesn't it make sense to start with a language like PHP and then, when you have figured shit out, make the jump to Python or Ruby? I wish this was more clear.

Re: PHP Addiction

#112

Post by banana_bread »

tom_m wrote: post #104

The only thing flawed with PHP is your outlook on it. People with money (investors, clients, etc.) don't care about ANY of the nuances mentioned here or by Jeff Atwood. At the end of the day, we use PHP and are rewarded for doing so. If you want to use another language or make a new one...Great. Do it. But I'm not sure why some people just want to try to change an entire industry and move people off of PHP... It make…

In a few years most NEW projects will probably not be made in PHP. You are suffering from Cognitive Dissonance, PHP is not good.

Re: PHP Addiction

#113

Post by ecocentrik »

derpmeister wrote: post #51
ecocentrik wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The importance of mod_php, it's robustness, stability and speed is completely underappreciated. It's not just the language with all it's quirks that people should be focusing on. The php stack is easier to use and configure than any of the other language/framework stacks making the time to publish faster. Passenger (mod_rack/mod_rails) looks like an attempt to imitate that stack to some degree but so far the results…

Robustness and stability are not properties of mod_php.

robustness and stability would both be properties of the language interpreter (mod_php, cgi, fastcgi...)

mod_php is stable enough for what it is... robustness is arguable... mod_php might not scale but it's a key component in php's popularity because it's a zero configuration plugin for apache that works perfectly for the needs of 90% of people writing php or running php applications.

Re: PHP Addiction

#114

Post by jmduke »

j_baker wrote: post #108
jmduke wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're completely right -- I phrased that badly. What I meant was that it lends itself well to small apps because the lack of code/architectural overhead, as opposed to Django, where coding small apps often feels like only furnishing one room in a five-bedroom house.

I would actually argue the exact opposite. Django is good for getting small, simple apps up and running quickly. It all gets overly complex very quickly when you need anything more than that. For a big app, it's better to start with something small that can grow to meet your needs rather than starting with something big that you'll have to fight to do what you need to do.

Interesting! I've never thought about it that way -- whenever I work with Django on a smaller scale I feel like I spend more time tweaking the framework itself rather than the actual app.

Re: PHP Addiction

#115

Post by lucian1900 »

Either Python or Ruby, or any number of other languages, are so much better than PHP that it doesn't matter if you make the slightly less ideal choice.

Go with Python if you already find it appealing.

Re: PHP Addiction

#116

Post by temp1337 »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #107

I think the simple problem with PHP is that its dated. Regardless of whether the language has serious flaws or not, the fact is that it takes a lot more effort and code to do the same things that new web frameworks let you do with a few lines of code. PHP is a great way to learn the basics because it doesn't have quite as many abstractions but that leads to slower development times, and plain bad code (insecure) if t…

This happened to be the first comment on the first article I wrote. I think it is a great example of what is wrong with the human race in general. Facebook still uses PHP, and I think there is a distinct possibility that "zaptheimpaler" wishes he were Mark Zuckerberg. Money and ego make people do weird things. The constant background of ego makes Hacker News relatively useless to me recently. Feel free to downvote or ignore this--I think going to church or hugging my dog is a better use of time than checking for replies or posting here (or Wikipedia, or lots of other endeavors we humans do).

Re: PHP Addiction

#117

Post by lucian1900 »

maratd wrote: post #69
adventureful wrote: post #55

The only thing actually wrong with PHP, is that it's popular but not cool. And that's a terrible place to sit for any product. It runs half the Internet quite well, but if you went by the posting on HN, you'd think it was Windows Vista. I've probably read every article critical of PHP that has hit the front page of HN in the last few years, and the one thing they all have in common is the vague refrain that PHP is a…

> The only thing actually wrong with PHP, is that it's popular but not cool. Hey now, we're all human. Even engineers. As soon as something becomes popular, it is no longer cool. Cool is the next popular. Cool is being different. That's just how things work. Apache is slooooow (NGINX is cool!). MySQL is retarded (Postgres is cool!). PHP sucks (Python is cool!). Red Hat is lame (Ubuntu is cool!). See a trend? The tech…

But the problem is MySQL and PHP are objectively, measurably much worse than the alternatives you have listed.

Cool-ness biases are perhaps not so easy to distinguish from justified ones.

Re: PHP Addiction

#118

Post by DanielRibeiro »

adventureful wrote: post #55

The only thing actually wrong with PHP, is that it's popular but not cool. And that's a terrible place to sit for any product. It runs half the Internet quite well, but if you went by the posting on HN, you'd think it was Windows Vista. I've probably read every article critical of PHP that has hit the front page of HN in the last few years, and the one thing they all have in common is the vague refrain that PHP is a…

That is not an unforseen phenomena at all[1]:

Once you have something that grows faster than education grows, you’re always going to get a pop culture

-Alan Kay

[1] http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1039523

Re: PHP Addiction

#119

Post by pkulak »

Is learning another procedural/OO language really that tough? I've put off learning Haskell/Erlang/etc because it's such a shift in thinking, but PHP/Ruby/Python/Java/JS/C-whatever seem to all be about the same. There's some new syntax, and entire new libraries, but it just means you have have the docs open a bunch at first. I find I have to actively _keep_ myself from starting new projects in the new flavor of the month and force myself to use something that I know much better and that is much more proven. I think I'd be rather proud of myself if I got a whole project done in PHP rather than Node or Scala or JRuby or something like that.

Re: PHP Addiction

#120

Post by tom_m »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #107

I think the simple problem with PHP is that its dated. Regardless of whether the language has serious flaws or not, the fact is that it takes a lot more effort and code to do the same things that new web frameworks let you do with a few lines of code. PHP is a great way to learn the basics because it doesn't have quite as many abstractions but that leads to slower development times, and plain bad code (insecure) if t…

Uh, it's actively being worked on and it grows at a very rapid pace. What you read about or use with PHP is dated. Most PHP applications are 5 years behind where PHP is currently. THAT is the real problem. You obviously have not seen any modern PHP code. RoR is dead dude. Have you been hibernating for a few years?
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