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Adobe confirms it won't support Flash on Android 4.1

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Re: Adobe confirms it won't support Flash on Android 4.1

#51

Post by novalis »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #8
leke wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's exactly why Adobe did it. Save money by making google do the work for us.

The company had already said that HTML5 was the way forward on phones and tablets -- now we know just how quickly it's backing up that claim. Why don't we just move onto HTML5 now? I use iOS devices and completely removed Flash from my Mac months ago. There is a Safari plugin to force the use of the H264 stream from youtube. Haven't missed Flash at all.

There are several reasons, audio in html5 is not ready at this point. Also, 3d in javascript is miles away from being a reality (actual 3d, like in x,y,z referenced points, not the anaglyphic 3d kind) and Mr. Doob with his fantastic three.js is still a distance away from what can be done in flash/actionscript now.

Those are some of the reason actionscript, air and flex are going to be around for a long time, even on mobile. If you "miss it" or you don't miss it, that is your own constructed opinion and it won't make flash go away sooner/later or ever for that matter

Flash simply outputs to ios executables now and you don't have a clue you are running it anymore, so, maybe that is part of why you don't miss it.

You don't seem to miss the know how of why it is necessary still, so that kind of loops to the point you don't know why we can't "just move onto HTML5 now?" Weird huh. How did that come about.

Picking camps is not the same as having a valid opinion based on objective reason, in your case it makes you stand out like a meme based "are we there yet" user. Cheerleading is awesome. But it really doesn't make the players score on its own.

Last reason why it won't "go away", flash developers get paid to make chart topping games that run on ios, while apple takes a store app cut from it.

Re: Adobe confirms it won't support Flash on Android 4.1

#52

Post by alister »

nkohari wrote: post #49
alister wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the problem with Flash? 1. Ceaselessly the biggest security hole on desktop computers. 2. Proprietary. 3. The need to install it in the first place and keep updating it. (And, no, I don't want it to auto-update.) 4. Can't cut and paste text from it. It's ridiculous to have to manually write down an address or phone number from a Flash-based site. 5. Search engines don't properly index it. 6. A Flash developer…

You should leave #6 out of your list. Your argument would be much more compelling for it. (Compilation/obfuscation is the norm, not the exception.)

You're quite right. I was thinking of an unsophisticated site owner with simple requirements (like a restaurant site) who hires a designer. He wouldn't know to put into the contract that all source code must be delivered. In such a case, he'd be better off if the designer used straight HTML. At least then there's a chance that someone else could edit it or maintain it.

Re: Adobe confirms it won't support Flash on Android 4.1

#53

Post by talmand »

cletus wrote: post #46

Seriously, Flash just needs to die and the sooner the better. It's horrible. I'm not even talking programming here (I know nothing about Flash programming). It's a horrible user experience . One of the things I'm thankful to Apple for is in them taking a stand against this horrible experience and hastening its demise. Lack of Flash on iOS is a feature . Flash isn't horrible per se . It's horrible because Adobe is com…

But what exactly are you basing the accusation of a horrible user experience on? Is it a matter of a Flash app that's badly designed? Because that's not Adobe's fault. If one were to duplicate the app's horrible user experience over to iOS does that mean the user experience for iOS apps can be considered as horrible? If I write some bad javascript that causes the browser to consistently crash does that mean that javascript or even the browser sucks?

Lack of Flash on iOS is a feature for you. Let's not assume what's good for you must be good for everyone else. I for one have never had much of a problem with Flash on the hardware that I use, but in some circles a negative opinion always outweighs a positive one.

The complaints about the problems you describe just running the Flash player on several different platforms are rather well deserved. It does seem that Adobe has decided at some point to drop the ball on the whole thing. But the player does support backwards compatibility all the way back to the beginning. I've always thought that possibly the majority of their problems relate to that. They should try just ripping out support for anything that uses versions less than actionscript 3 for a leaner plugin.

But, this statement does seem more about the Flash player itself in the browser. It doesn't necessarily mean that Flash, as in the platform, will die. It'll probably live on as its own platform that requires something like Adobe Air to run on some hardware.

Also, almost everything you hate about Flash's "user experience" will live on in the canvas tag. Unless I misunderstand what you mean by user experience.

Re: Adobe confirms it won't support Flash on Android 4.1

#54

Post by talmand »

alister wrote: post #52
nkohari wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should leave #6 out of your list. Your argument would be much more compelling for it. (Compilation/obfuscation is the norm, not the exception.)

You're quite right. I was thinking of an unsophisticated site owner with simple requirements (like a restaurant site) who hires a designer. He wouldn't know to put into the contract that all source code must be delivered. In such a case, he'd be better off if the designer used straight HTML. At least then there's a chance that someone else could edit it or maintain it.

Although I agree with the problem of the developer not handing over the source files, the same problem potentially exists if the designer doesn't hand over the source Photoshop and/or Illustrator files. Granted, that's not as big a deal as withholding Flash files, but it's there.

Re: Adobe confirms it won't support Flash on Android 4.1

#55

Post by ori_b »

cletus wrote: post #46

Seriously, Flash just needs to die and the sooner the better. It's horrible. I'm not even talking programming here (I know nothing about Flash programming). It's a horrible user experience . One of the things I'm thankful to Apple for is in them taking a stand against this horrible experience and hastening its demise. Lack of Flash on iOS is a feature . Flash isn't horrible per se . It's horrible because Adobe is com…

I have one concern with flash dying: It means that annoying, crappy ads will migrate to HTML5. Annoying HTML5 ads will not be as easy to selectively block. I suspect that the low quality UX will simply migrate and crash a bit less.

Flashblock was a great method of filtering annoying content.

Re: Adobe confirms it won't support Flash on Android 4.1

#56

Post by bbayer »

Flash is a platform and it is very unique virtual machine. It has its own features. Since it is a virtual machine it has great potential. I think most problematic part that Adobe has to face is fragmentation. It is very complex task to maintain a complex VM ( which consists of very high level graphics capabilities) to run smoothly on every single hardware. Flash has provided lots of great stuff which is not provided by any platform before. Even now there is no any other choice for specific tasks like P2P video.

Re: Adobe confirms it won't support Flash on Android 4.1

#57

Post by 27182818284 »

talmand wrote: post #53
cletus wrote: post #46

Seriously, Flash just needs to die and the sooner the better. It's horrible. I'm not even talking programming here (I know nothing about Flash programming). It's a horrible user experience . One of the things I'm thankful to Apple for is in them taking a stand against this horrible experience and hastening its demise. Lack of Flash on iOS is a feature . Flash isn't horrible per se . It's horrible because Adobe is com…

But what exactly are you basing the accusation of a horrible user experience on? Is it a matter of a Flash app that's badly designed? Because that's not Adobe's fault. If one were to duplicate the app's horrible user experience over to iOS does that mean the user experience for iOS apps can be considered as horrible? If I write some bad javascript that causes the browser to consistently crash does that mean that java…

>But what exactly are you basing the accusation of a horrible user experience on?

Can't speak for them, but yeah, I mean, in the end it is all subjective right? You can try to measure it, but sometimes Shit Just Doesn't Feel Right™. That's how I've ALWAYS felt about Flash. Before Steve Jobs said it, before Google was a company and I was little, and after I anxiously installed it on Android only to once again be sad by how awful it is.

Also developers at WWDC or Google I/O wouldn't cheer if either company said "We're going all in on Flash." they would look at their neighbor and say, "Wait...what? Why?"

Re: Adobe confirms it won't support Flash on Android 4.1

#58

Post by cpeterso »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #5

Hopefully the absence of Flash on both major mobile platforms will help speed its demise on non-mobile platforms as well. On the other hand, this news might just precede another announcement from Google saying "don't worry, Adobe doesn't support it anymore, but we do", just as they did for Flash on Linux.

Chrome for ICS doesn't support Flash and will presumably be the default browser for Jelly Bean. Google is unlikely to change their mind and add Flash support.

Re: Adobe confirms it won't support Flash on Android 4.1

#59

Post by calinet6 »

alister wrote: post #48
ido wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your problem with flash, really? I honestly can't think of a better platform for web games (and it's one of the easiest way to develop 2d games, regardless of web or not). The only thing I can think of is people who don't care about games, in that case flash does seem like an annoyance more than anything (we can do without flash restaurant sites or punch the monkey banners, but i suspect html5/js will just ta…

What's the problem with Flash? 1. Ceaselessly the biggest security hole on desktop computers. 2. Proprietary. 3. The need to install it in the first place and keep updating it. (And, no, I don't want it to auto-update.) 4. Can't cut and paste text from it. It's ridiculous to have to manually write down an address or phone number from a Flash-based site. 5. Search engines don't properly index it. 6. A Flash developer…

10. Blatant inconsistency and poor design across the board.

This is the single most important reason. I say this as a 5-year veteran of Flash and Flex app development. Adobe has a poor compiler and VM with inconsistent specs and behavior, a poor set of libraries with myriad inconsistencies, a poorly designed UI library that's internally inconsistent, poor consulting that attempts to apply business logic on top of an inconsistent platform, and poor security that tries to patch holes at the wrong layer without thinking about them in any depth.

Computers and computer systems thrive on consistency and provability. Each layer depends on the ability of the layer under it to mathematically prove that it works. Without that, everything topples.

Adobe is built on an ethos of inconsistency.

That is the root of the problem.

Re: Adobe confirms it won't support Flash on Android 4.1

#60

Post by talmand »

27182818284 wrote: post #57
talmand wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what exactly are you basing the accusation of a horrible user experience on? Is it a matter of a Flash app that's badly designed? Because that's not Adobe's fault. If one were to duplicate the app's horrible user experience over to iOS does that mean the user experience for iOS apps can be considered as horrible? If I write some bad javascript that causes the browser to consistently crash does that mean that java…

>But what exactly are you basing the accusation of a horrible user experience on? Can't speak for them, but yeah, I mean, in the end it is all subjective right? You can try to measure it, but sometimes Shit Just Doesn't Feel Right™. That's how I've ALWAYS felt about Flash. Before Steve Jobs said it, before Google was a company and I was little, and after I anxiously installed it on Android only to once again be sad b…

But then I could make you a Flash app that does nothing but show a blank 640x480 stage with a simple button and then you would say "that just doesn't feel right"? But if I did the same thing in canvas you would react with "that's better"? That doesn't address my question about what is meant by "user experience". It is a tool, nothing else. Unless someone can show me a common trait across almost all Flash apps that is some sort of fail that can be directly tied to Flash then I attribute complaints of user experience to the developers of the app, not the tool.

Now, if you were to say that your experience with Flash in general on mobile devices is that it tends to crash and is slow; then that makes sense. That would be a user experience problem directed at Flash. It just seems to me most complaints of user experience with Flash is based on a misguided hatred of Flash itself.

The reason everyone would react that way with your hypothetical is because that would be stupid, that's not what Flash is for.

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