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Is the attack helicopter dead?

hushkit.net

111–120 of 650 posts

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#111
Ask not what you can do to the attack helicopter, but instead what the attack helicopter can do to you. Increase vulnerability is only one side of the coin. If there are still valuable missions that can be better done by an attack helicopter than by a competing system, then they are not dead.

But yeah, drones will probably take most of the missions away.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#112

I'm surprise the article didn't mention the US military history. The US Army has not had a evolution of its attack helicopter since the 1970s. I remember because one of my favorite childhood games was Comanche 3. [1] Control a helicopter, not crash, not get shot down, neutralize enemies, and achieve mission objectives -- it was cutting-edge for 1997. The Comanche program was scrapped after more than a decade of devel…

My understanding is that the latest versions of the Apache and Cobra are very different from their original incarnations, despite looking similar, no?

Avionics for sure, but there's not really anything like a "5th gen" helicopter. Helicopters are mostly close air support. No one is going to send fleets of helicopters to engage in air to air combat with other fleets of helicopters.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more complex than that. The US made Switchblade drones which cost tens of thousands of dollars were outperformed with lightly modified FPVs with grenades, which came in under a thousand.

We don't know if they underperfomed so much as weren't cost effective. If the switchblade costing $10k results in a kill 80% of the time, while the $1k drone is 30% of the time, you just get 3 times as many $1k drones, average about the same kill rate, and save 70% to boot. Or spend the same amount and get about 3x the kill rate.

Another thing commonly left out of these napkin math scenarios is cyber security risk... it may make sense to cut down on human resources, but you better make sure your drone fleet won't be commandeered by an adversarial nation-state's script kiddies. Cheaper to make, but perhaps also cheaper to have them turn on you.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#114
post #61

A BS article if I ever saw one. Take for example this: > Moreover, the threat is not the organic air defences of battlegroups or a Soviet Motor-Rifle Regiment or Brigade, but dispersed and well-hidden infantry and special forces units equipped with modern MANPADS missile systems. Furthermore, because the enemy forces are operating over the defenders’ own ground, the defence can be cued and alerted to approaching heli…

Battle vs war. In the right situation any weapon is effective.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#115

Whoever can most cost effectively put explosives on target wins. The future will be annihilation at a distance with cheap standoff weapons followed by swarms of cheap drones loitering over battlefields to clean up.

The logical endgame of this is war between a bunch of drones with very few humans in the loop, with the only viable way for either side to end it being to attack civilian targets until the opponent surrenders.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#116
post #2

I think most manned war vehicles are dead now. We are definitely entering into the era of drone-vs-human warfare. Drones are cheap and deadly and can be remotely operated, and soon probably operated by AI.

Yeah, well, the Ukrainian army is on record saying they'd rather have more artillery shells than more drones.

I am not surprised, drone warfare today requires a lot of people and a lot of manhours, and it does not scale that well. Several guys are often moving the equipment on foot to get as close to the frontline as possible, so that the pilot can have a few shots at delivering a pretty small explosives to a target they might not even found. On the other hand, few conscripts can jump on a Grad and start shooting rockets on a whim.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think most manned war vehicles are dead now. IMO, submarines - especially nuclear subs probably have decades of life left at a minimum. But yeah - everything else is starting to look very vulnerable.

What’s to stop development of unmanned drone SSNs? Including ones that act as motherships for underwater drone swarms to boot.

Communication and detection underwater is a major issue. Radio is not effective at any range. Audio datalinks are short-ranged, low-bandwidth, unreliable, easily jammed, and give away your position. Active sonar gives away your position. High speed both gives away your position and makes passive sonar useless.

Torpedoes are forced to use physical wires for remote guidance because nothing else works.

It would be pretty easy for someone to develop a quiet, long-range torpedo that can be launched undetected outside active sonar range. (Assuming this capability doesn’t already exist.)

Also, SSNs already carry long-range drones called cruise missiles.

Manned subs will take a long time to become obsolete.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#118

Russia's Ka-52 were a significant problem for Ukraine in the summer 2023 offensive. When Ukraine's armour would meet massive mine fields and get stymied, it was Ka-52s arriving, popping up over tree lines and taking pot shots at them with ATGMs from a distance that outranged most of their MANPADs. Only a few were taken out by lucky hits near the front. The only reason they aren't seen as much anymore is because Russi…

Came here to say this. Ukraine also adapted by, most likely, having a roving Patriot that ambushed a few Ka-52s (and a few fixed-wing jets).

Western militaries don't seem to have much capability for tactical/mobile medium range air defense. The Russian Air Force has been extremely unimpressive, but has cobbled together an effective tactic now of launching glide bombs at front line targets from relatively safe territory. I am surprised no one has figured out how to put one or two long-range air-air missiles on a loitering high altitude drone.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#119
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, well, the Ukrainian army is on record saying they'd rather have more artillery shells than more drones.

I’d guess they can reuse the drones most of the time?

Only reconnaissance drones and few heavy bombers. Mostly they use kamikadze FPV drones in pair with Mavic for surveillance.

Re: Is the attack helicopter dead?

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more complex than that. The US made Switchblade drones which cost tens of thousands of dollars were outperformed with lightly modified FPVs with grenades, which came in under a thousand.

We don't know if they underperfomed so much as weren't cost effective. If the switchblade costing $10k results in a kill 80% of the time, while the $1k drone is 30% of the time, you just get 3 times as many $1k drones, average about the same kill rate, and save 70% to boot. Or spend the same amount and get about 3x the kill rate.

It is not just production cost, the average latency between target detection and target destruction has a large impact on battlefield dynamics. More precise weapons can destroy most of the capability of less precise weapons before they are ever used. Additionally, precision weapons typically have a much smaller logistical footprint, and logistics can make or break military campaigns.

Much of the US focus on precision terminal guidance is derived from this calculus in a straightforward way. It may be more expensive in a unit cost sense but significantly cheaper in terms of net expected effect on the battlefield. This "precision versus quantity" argument played out to greatly favor precision in Ukraine.

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