Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Or what about the damage that proprietary platforms like .NET (which Jeff uses if I'm not mistaken) or iOS do to the programming world by restricting progress to a single company." PHP is used for web development. Microsoft's best alternative for web development is ASP.NET MVC which is open source.
No, PHP is a language with some framework-like aspects. Your nitpicking is quite poor.
Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity
71–80 of 341 posts
Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity
#72Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity
#73Full disclosure: I am an average programmer compared to many here. I come to this site to improve my self and read about what brilliant and amazing things you all do. Now you have a reference.
I use PHP on a daily basis, have been for years. I am a freelance developer who has been able to carve out a living with a lot of hard work and a lot of luck. I just met the right people at the right time. Over the last 7 years since I started developing professionally, I have seen nothing but people shitting on PHP constantly. I am in no way suggesting PHP is a perfect language, but I still never get the hate. It just seems so ivory tower to me sometimes. Let's look at reality.
I'm starting a small project for a client. They are keeping track of all their scheduling and doing all their reporting in excel. They want to move this to the web with basic security so the right people can see the right information with ability to access it from anywhere. That's it. You know what works for that? PHP does. It works fine and it works on almost any server in the entire world with no issues. I don't need a .vimrc file with a million special configurations, I don't need a hot new framework where my time is spent figuring out how to do basic CRUD operations, it won't matter if PHP is statically typed or not, it won't matter if... you get the idea. I just need to start developing and getting this project done so this business can start saving time and money. That's what matters most to me.
PHP works, and it works damn well for millions of situations every day. No one is suggesting you use PHP to build a super computer. If your project requires something different than use something different. PHP is not the "Nickleback" of programming. PHP is useful. PHP is practical. PHP is easy, and that's not a bad thing. Facebook, the biggest site in the world, uses PHP. Think about that.
Finally, let's use his tool analogy. PHP is a double-clawed hammer. What if your job was to remove nails from wood all day? What a wonderful tool a double-clawed hammer would be! You wouldn't have to worry about which way the hammer is facing! That would save you real time and real effort. It's the right tool for that job. Tools are about how you use them. If someone uses a tool incorrectly it's not the fault of the tool.
PHP can use improvement. Every language can. I imagine a meeting of otherwise incredibly smart people sitting around in smoking jackets and sipping fine brandy standing around with smug smiles on their face. "PHP is horrible!" One will say. "Hmmmm... Yes... Quite..." A small laughter emerges. They all pat themselves on the back and enjoy their intellectual circle-jerk. All the while countless developers are using it every day for the right reasons making real applications that help real businesses save real time and real money. Laugh at me all you want, I get Christmas cards from my clients. They like me just fine.
Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity
#74From the post: > build compelling alternatives and make sure these alternatives are equally pervasive, as easy to set up and use as possible. A bite later: > We've got a long way to go. [...] The best way to fix the PHP problem at this point is to make the alternatives so outstanding that the choice of the better hammer becomes obvious. Basically, Jeff just agreed that PHP is simply better than the rest. The problem…
Basically, Jeff just agreed that PHP is simply better than the rest. Easier != better. Nice try.
He's going to tweak his site, continue making money and stop caring about whatever the hell his site is written in.
Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity
#75Do the PHP frameworks help at all?
Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity
#76PHP got Facebook up and running, so it has that to its credit. And that's a huge credit. As a result, Facebook engineers developed things like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HipHop_for_PHP Which is an impressive piece of technology, but makes you wonder if Facebook engineers wish their website wasn't written in PHP.
http://www.quora.com/Quora-Infrastructure/Why-did-Quora-choo...
Facebook is stuck with PHP for their legacy codebase, but you'll note they avoid it for new code that isn't tied to the existing codebase.
Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity
#77Sorry Jeff. The only thing broken with PHP is you (and other people like you). How much PHP do you use Jeff? Lets assume none. How is PHP hurting you? I mean seriously, how much contact do you even have with PHP? PHP is easy to learn, easy to make websites with. There are a tonne of paying jobs which require PHP. PHP runs a lot of websites. I am a PHP developer. I prefer Python but my PHP job pays me just fine. There…
"I prefer Python". Why did you say that? To me it feels like you said it do people would take you seriously as a "real" developer. Because surely a "real" developer wouldn't actually enjoy using PHP or use it unless they were forced, right? I agree with your point and I just wanted to add that the fact that we have to add in little details like "I prefer Python" just to be taken seriously says more about hacker eliti…
Why did you say that? To me it feels like you said it so people would take you seriously as a "real" biker. Because surely a "real" biker wouldn't actually enjoy walking unless they were forced, right?
Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity
#78PHP is broken in many little aspects but if you use a high quality framework, it's quite enjoyable to work with. The main gripes I have with it are in the details, like: You can't do: $something->doStuff()[0] if(empty($something->doStuff())) Overload fucking functions. Fuck. What sucks: The namespace separator. The naming conventions of the core functions. The speed. But, overall it works and elegant solutions can be…
Speed isn't an issue, at least in my experience, compared to similar languages. Raw PHP usually beats Rails handsdown, and most PHP frameworks are usually comparable. PHP performance has increased markedly over the past few years, and particularly in v5.4. And if you really need a speed bump you can use the APC cache or HipHop compiler. Its never going to be as snappy as, say, C, but in the class of languages its in…
Being able to keep up with the slowest competitor in existence isn't very good.
Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity
#79Cue legions of PHP drones blubbing about how it does the job just fine, it's available everywhere and how it's used by Facebook and half the internet. We get it. We used to be PHP developers too. We took the time to learn other languages and now work with them. We enjoy our jobs significantly more than we used to. You might too.
That's nice, if you get lucky and/or you are young and able and willing to move anywhere you want. I have a CS degree, am reasonably proficient in Python, want to be better with Java, but ever since an internship in college have worked, at least professionally, exclusively with PHP. You (General you) get companies to hire experienced PHP Devs , even as entry level for other languages and I'll be there in seconds. How…
* Let x be the technology you want to work with professionally.
* Spend roughly a year of occasional unfocused off-time building little side projects with x. You can do it faster if you have more drive than me.
* Put those side projects on your github profile or anywhere people can see them.
* Apply to companies that work with x, whether or not they say they are hiring, or take experienced hires from other technologies. Send your github profile along with the application. Preferably go via a connection, but this is not required.
* In the interview/application process, demonstrate strong, language-agnostic technical skills along with some fundamental knowledge/realisations specific to technology x.
YMMV.
Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity
#80I agree that it's rather surprising that in this day and age, nothing comes close to the out-of-the-box ease and performance that PHP gives for web development. Install a couple of packages, and BANG, you're up and running. It's been a year since I've taken a look at the rest of the webdev landscape, but it seems that you either lose out to an overly-complex setup (by comparison), or suffer with a memory hog that mak…
Agreed. I can set up a VPS with debian/nginx/mysql/php in about 10 minutes and have a site up and running. Python? Ruby? There just doesn't seem to be an easy way of getting them running on a web server. At least, I haven't figured it out yet if it is easy to do.
Granted, for larger projects where you run your own ruby/python services, it could surely be easier. But for larger projects you probably want to spend more time on your deployment setup anyway.