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Why and how we’re migrating many of our servers from Linux to the BSDs

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Re: Why and how we’re migrating many of our servers from Linux to the BSDs

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As someone who admins a lot of btrfs, it seems very unlikely that this was unrecoverable. As someone who used it all day every day in my day job for 4 years, I find it 100% believable. I am not saying you're wrong: I'm saying, experiences differ widely, and your patterns of use are not be universal. It's the single most unreliable untrustworthy filesystem I've used in the 21st century.

As someone who has used it in my day job since 2014, I find it around 5% believable. I've had nasty performance issues on old kernels, but never a single instance of unrecoverable data loss, and I've run it in plenty of pathological cases. Experiences differ

It is the default root filesystem on SLE and openSUSE, as well as Garuda, SpiralLinux, GeckoLinux, siduction, and others.

(I name these because all use snapper to provide transactional packaging and installation rollback. This is less relevant to other distros which use Btrfs but do not offer transactional packaging, e.g. Fedora or Oracle Linux.)

The snapper tool makes a pre-install snapshot before packaging operations. It can't get a reliable estimate of available space before doing this, because `df` does not work. It returns an estimate which is not reliable.

Result, snapper or packaging operations can fill the root filesystem.

Attempted writes to a full Btrfs volume will corrupt it in my fairly extensive direct personal experience.

And the `btrfs repair` tool does not work and can't fix a corrupted volume. Both the Btrfs docs and SUSE docs tell you not to run it: this is not my opinion, it's objectively verifiable info.

This caused total OS self-destruction 2-3 times per year, on 2 different desktops and 1 laptop, for 4 years.

The official guidance is: have a really big root partition and do not keep `/home` separate.

However, given that it's only having a separate /home partition (formatted XFS or ext4) that allowed me to reinstall and keep working, I refuse to do that.

When a FS repeatedly collapses and self-destructs on me, no, I will not hand it even more of my data to destroy. That would be irrational.

I know why. I know what steps could hypothetically avoid this, but for other reasons those are not desirable to me.

But this is not acceptable FS behaviour for me. The demands of Btrfs advocates of what I should do are not reasonable to me.

I am happy to accept that other configs would not exhibit this, but the thing is this:

1. A core USP of SUSE distros is transactional packaging

2. Their transactional packaging needs snapper

3. Snapper needs Btrfs

4. Because of design flaws in Btrfs, snapper can corrupt the OS partition

5. Over some 15 years these problems in Btrfs have not been fixed

That makes me think they can't or won't fix it.

That is an unacceptable price to me. My choices are to risk a self-destructing distro, or to risk all my data on a fragile FS, or to forego the distro's USP.

None of these are acceptable prices to me.

Others' mileage varies. That's fine. It's a free market. Go for it. Enjoy.

OpenSUSE is a good distro with some great tech, but the company needs to study rival distros more, learn its own weaknesses, and fix them.

(This is true of most distro vendors.)

Re: Why and how we’re migrating many of our servers from Linux to the BSDs

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kubernetes has unquestionably been a game changer. > If you look at most enterprises today you will see it deployed everywhere. This doesn't mean it's a game changer. It just means it has a big cargo-cult and people keep using it regardless of whether they need it. > most of the complexity has been abstracted away by the cloud providers The abstractions that people add make things more complex, not less. Unless of…

Kubernetes is one of those things that are only as complicated as you want it to be. The problem with Kubernetes and complexity is that because it simplifies a lot of things that are a huge PITA to accomplish on a "homemade" server/container setup is that there are a huge number of products and things you can run on kubernetes to "do stuff". And it is hard for a lot of people and organizations to resist the "oh shiny…

You're not wrong about the ideal case, but I've never seen the ideal case in any real (read: paid) context. I've seen hobbyists with very solid setups that were well managed, I've made the thing that kubernetes wants to solve by hand and I understand it's not a trivial (that is to say, not a single afternoon of design and implementation) to do.

I guess I'm just really frustrated with seeing the people that get paid to use and promote it be so bad at what they do and I don't like cleaning up after them :)

Re: Why and how we’re migrating many of our servers from Linux to the BSDs

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kubernetes has unquestionably been a game changer. > If you look at most enterprises today you will see it deployed everywhere. This doesn't mean it's a game changer. It just means it has a big cargo-cult and people keep using it regardless of whether they need it. > most of the complexity has been abstracted away by the cloud providers The abstractions that people add make things more complex, not less. Unless of…

You're probably going to be downvoted to oblivion but I 100% agree with you. It seems like they tried to remove all the complexity, and just made new complexity.

You will be happy to learn that it was not in fact downvoted at all. I think this may be the first time I've expressed this sentiment to (mostly) positive feedback and I'm pretty sure it's because it was explained properly this time. That is I think a good thing - the downvotes that came before gave me the impulse to improve, and I was rewarded when I did.

Re: Why and how we’re migrating many of our servers from Linux to the BSDs

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kubernetes has unquestionably been a game changer. > If you look at most enterprises today you will see it deployed everywhere. This doesn't mean it's a game changer. It just means it has a big cargo-cult and people keep using it regardless of whether they need it. > most of the complexity has been abstracted away by the cloud providers The abstractions that people add make things more complex, not less. Unless of…

> The abstractions that people add make things more complex, not less Everything in our industry is built on abstractions. By your logic we shouldn't be using operating systems, compilers, libraries etc and writing our own custom software to manually move applications between different hosts if they go down.

I didn't say this at all. I said you should understand what you run, and if you understand it you realise it adds complexity.

I don't really see how this is a particularly controversial statement and I will say I don't appreciate you trying to reduce it to some ridiculous extreme. You didn't add anything to the discussion and it's tragic, because you could have made a nice point about system boundaries, levels of abstraction and perhaps information overload.

That would have made a great point about why abstraction is sometimes necessary. Then we could have spoken about what makes good and bad abstractions. Perhaps someone who came upon this thread later could have learned something and we'd have made the site a better place together.

Re: Why and how we’re migrating many of our servers from Linux to the BSDs

#237
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still waiting for BeOS to make a come back

What is the situation with Haiku now?

They just released another "beta" not long ago. It seems like it's getting closer and closer to being daily driver ready.
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