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XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

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Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#161

Post by kelnos »

hggigg wrote: post #159
kelnos wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that's what the community does't get: the last 20% is the hard bit I think a lot of people in OSS do get that, but in many ways it's significantly harder to do that last 20% in an open source project than it is for a proprietary software company to do it. But ultimately I don't care that much, honestly. If you don't get what you need out of open source, that's fine. You not using it isn't a problem for me or fo…

As I've said elsewhere, your data is the important bit. And at least in my case that is 100% portable. The winds of change are inevitable, but you can move house without too much hassle.

If think you can trust your data with a bunch of proprietary software companies, I'm not sure what to tell you.

> And at least in my case that is 100% portable

For now. Time and time again I see stories where people think they have redundant copies of everything important, and can reconstruct things when a company pulls out the rug out from under them, only to find they're missing something important.

Maybe you aren't. Great, good for you. You represent a teeny tiny percentage of the sum of proprietary software users. Again, I'm glad you believe you're safe and happy with the arrangement you have, but you're uncommon, and that's the entire point.

And for me, it's not just portability. Most companies are going to mine your data, use it to train AI, sell it to third parties, whatever they think will make them money. Or they just get hacked, like everyone does, eventually. You can protect yourself from that with open source. Not saying you don't still have to be vigilant, of course you do... but with proprietary software? Well, best of luck with that. Even with Apple, one of the few companies I think are reasonably trustworthy stewards of customer data, despite all the other issues I have with that company.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#162

Post by prmoustache »

fb03 wrote: post #13

In all honesty, the screen sharing situation (and other stuff) in Wayland is currently so brittle that I consider XFCE (my daily driver) lagging behind in its adoption a feature.

wayland screen sharing has been solved like 4 years ago and would work already at the time with workarounds.

I remember when we got confined and were sent home, I could not screen share in MS teams on chrome out of the box but a few minutes of search gave me the chrome flags to enable and I just created a new local desktop file to start it up with the right flags

Since then the only things that have been missing is HDR support and color calibration. It sucks to not have them ready but they are only really used by a tiny fraction of the users so for 99.9% of the users wayland works fine.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#163

Post by exe34 »

cwillu wrote: post #112
panick21_ wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

X11 is basically already unsupported, pretty much all the developers moved to Wayland. Even the BSD and everybody else relaying on X11 has noticed that and they know they can't maintain X11 by themselves. It will 100x not go away, there is no way. Literally all big stakeholder both open source (Gnome, KDE, Fedora and so on) and companies like Valve are all in on Wayland. The reality is, X11 is a complete train wreck…

You say X11 is unsupported, and I note with glee that X11 hasn't _broken_ for me _since_ they stopped supporting it.

yes, I wish more software would be "unsupported" like this!

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#164

Post by bitwize »

AlienRobot wrote: post #90
panick21_ wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

X11 is basically already unsupported, pretty much all the developers moved to Wayland. Even the BSD and everybody else relaying on X11 has noticed that and they know they can't maintain X11 by themselves. It will 100x not go away, there is no way. Literally all big stakeholder both open source (Gnome, KDE, Fedora and so on) and companies like Valve are all in on Wayland. The reality is, X11 is a complete train wreck…

>X11 is basically already unsupported, pretty much all the developers moved to Wayland In my view, Wayland is basically unsupported. GNOME and KDE support it. XFCE, Lxqt, Mate, and Cinnamon don't. It's been over 10 years. You could make a whole DE from scratch in this time.

> In my view, Wayland is basically unsupported.

"Unsupported" as in there are no maintainers, there's no roadmap, there's no future. X11 is a dead end. All the people who were working on it would rather work on Wayland instead. It's taking a while for the DEs, etc. to catch up, but even the slow pace of improvement Wayland is exhibiting is much better than "dead in the water" which is where X11 is.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#165

Post by bitwize »

linguae wrote: post #22
hggigg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could be worse. The whole Gnome 3 and Wayland thing pushed me to macOS.

I sympathize, but unfortunately Tim Cook's stewardship of the Mac, from the embrace of soldered RAM and even storage throughout the Mac lineup, to the increasing annoyances of macOS either in the name of security (e.g., notarization, the popups that request permission to read user directories, which is really annoying when using LLVM's debugger in modern macOS) or to help advertise Apple's subscription services, have…

> soldered RAM

Soldered RAM is faster than socketed RAM. What's faster still is Apple's current approach: putting the RAM inside the CPU chip package. This is one of the reasons why Apple Silicon chips are so screamingly fast and handily beat any x86 chip core-for-core.

> to the increasing annoyances of macOS either in the name of security (e.g., notarization, the popups that request permission to read user directories, which is really annoying when using LLVM's debugger in modern macOS)

These help prevent malicious software, such as downloaded apps or even web pages, from exfiltrating or tampering with user data. Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1200/

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#166

Post by erik_seaberg »

bitwize wrote: post #77
jmclnx wrote: post #5

If I had to use a Desktop environment in Linux, it would be XFCE. But, this Wayland thing is pushing me over to the BSDs. So far I have no abandoned Linux and I doubt Wayland will become mandatory until Firefox stops supporting X.

This "Wayland thing" is what the X devs would rather work on instead of X. It's the future. Best to rip the Band-Aid off now.

GPUs live in desktops and phones, but apps live in remote datacenters, so the future seems to be sending rendering commands to Javascript frontends on end users' browsers.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#167

Post by bitwize »

erik_seaberg wrote: post #166
bitwize wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "Wayland thing" is what the X devs would rather work on instead of X. It's the future. Best to rip the Band-Aid off now.

GPUs live in desktops and phones, but apps live in remote datacenters, so the future seems to be sending rendering commands to Javascript frontends on end users' browsers.

Pretty much, yeah. Hence why I say the replacement for X is Wayland, but the replacement for NeWS is the browser/Electron.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#168

Post by mkgreen »

kelnos wrote: post #152
mkgreen wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And so is X11. We are heading for a dual stack desktops. There are tons of expensive applications that target Linux _because_ of X11 and they will rather force users to switch OSes than get rewritten.

Pretty much any app that uses a toolkit won't need to be rewritten. Most of them just need small changes, or even no changes. Those that are written to use Xlib directly, sure, they'll take some work (though rewritten? doubtful). If their maintainers don't want to do that, they'll still run under Xwayland.

These apps were written for X11 and NFS, so they can run on any node in a cluster. The were typically deployed on commercial UNIX systems and ported to Linux when Sun went belly up. In practice, I don't think porting them again will be needed. It is enough to qualify a different distribution if Redhat chose to exit the workstation market. There are already companies like NoMachine that keep X11 running.

It is not even about the access (people usually use nx or even vnc for that). It is about having a system that can work as a part of a cluster (network filesystem, X11), with all base GUI utilities (terminals, file managers, browsers, pdf viewers) supporting that.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#169

Post by mkgreen »

ac29 wrote: post #138
mkgreen wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And so is X11. We are heading for a dual stack desktops. There are tons of expensive applications that target Linux _because_ of X11 and they will rather force users to switch OSes than get rewritten.

If the apps target Linux/X11, wouldnt they also have to be rewritten to switch OS?

There are other Unix systems but by far the easiest solution is simply making sure all installed apps can still behave as X11 clients. Wayland or Xwayland is not really any issue. Few people use Xorg directly, as the new deployments usually require some form of a remote access.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#170

Post by IWeldMelons »

djbusby wrote: post #121
IWeldMelons wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not like the panels Apple uses, they have harsh backlight, due to 450 nm blue primary; nwer panels have 455-460nm blue light peak. My eyes are sensitive and I get tired on Apples.

Have you tried blue-block type lenses? Not those yellow ones from infomercial - it's a clear lens that cuts some wavelength for staring at bright monitor all day. Lots of cheap readers have those.

This was not my point. My point is that Apple uses old panels, which are pushier on eyes, instead of asking LG to put normal backlight. A supposedly premium manafacturer stuck with the panel from 2016; Apple stopped innovating, outside the M cpu series.

Btw the lenses still are yellowish, and interfere with white balance. Attempt to correct the white balance will destroy the effect of the lenses at 450 nm will be back.

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