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We're excited about our new roundabout

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Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#111

Post by bnralt »

lmm wrote: post #100
bnralt wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Online I see this mentality that roundabouts are great no matter what and it seems really strange to me. It really depends on the design of the roundabout and the traffic conditions. Where I grew up there are a lot of roundabouts, but many of them are so dangerously designed I started actively avoiding them. It’s not that you can’t poorly design a four way stop, but it seems to be much less common, for whatever reaso…

They absolutely are. Even if they don't prevent all collisions, they turn T-bones into glancing hits and so save a lot of lives. The worst roundabout beats the best 4-way stop any day of the week. Sometimes there really are easy answers.

> The worst roundabout beats the best 4-way stop any day of the week. Sometimes there really are easy answers.

Maybe you haven't seen the worst ones, then. For instance, one by my house had traffic lines which gave people the wrong impression about the right of way within the roundabout, leading to every vehicle treating driving like that. I actually drove like that as well for a long time - when you're spending every day driving the exact same way that the hundreds of other cars surrounding you are driving, and the lines on the road suggest that it's correct way to drive, it's easy to mistakenly think this is what you're supposed to be doing.

Then it hit me one day - this isn't how right of way works in a roundabout at all. I talked to others in the area, who were surprised when I brought it up. That's what the lines implied, that's what everyone _did_, but that's not how it was supposed to be used. Everyone was driving through this incorrectly. And it was a major roundabout, that had some of the heaviest traffic in the city.

Maybe it didn't matter because everyone was driving incorrectly, which worked most (but not all) of the time? But when it wouldn't, the accident would be a T-bone, so we can't say that roundabouts eliminate those.

Years later someone in the city seemed to realize it, and changed the design of the roundabout. It's better now, but there are still a few areas they overlooked that have the potential to cause accidents.

Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#113

Post by bee_rider »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #94
nixosbestos wrote: post #12

Apparently I'm sticking my neck out here, but it really doesn't seem that hard. Overhead, I can intuit the path I would take, and if I imagine it first-person, it seems even more obvious. It's frustrating riding with certain other American drivers in other countries. I've met numerous folks now that seem upset that they have to actually pay attention to their driving and the traffic. Meanwhile I'm horrified that they…

I genuinely cannot read that roundabout from overhead, and I am not a person who has trouble with roundabouts. I think it would benefit greatly from an explanatory diagram. I do hope that it would be more obvious while on the ground, like you said.

Based on the description it is some odd design to accommodate farm equipment. It seems a bit odd.

Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#114

Post by makeitdouble »

bnralt wrote: post #95
thepaulmcbride wrote: post #35

I live in the US now, but originally from Ireland. My least favourite part of US road infrastructure is the 4 way stop. They are just not good compared to a roundabout. Half the time the only way you can tell it’s an all way stop is by looking for the back of the stop signs on the perpendicular road. With a roundabout, you only have to look in one direction, and if it’s clear, you don’t even have to stop.

Online I see this mentality that roundabouts are great no matter what and it seems really strange to me. It really depends on the design of the roundabout and the traffic conditions. Where I grew up there are a lot of roundabouts, but many of them are so dangerously designed I started actively avoiding them. It’s not that you can’t poorly design a four way stop, but it seems to be much less common, for whatever reaso…

You can mess roundabouts, but it requires a sever lack of competence that we rarely see TBH, and it can be progressively improved (signage, better visibility, lines etc)

I'm with you on how some will still be dangerous, and can require traffic stops. But it's still better than going back to a plain stops IMHO, and it's usually in portions where it was already dangerous before putting in the roundabout. In practice I've never seen a reversal of a roundabout to get back to a plain intersection.

Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#115

Post by ssl-3 »

al_borland wrote: post #87
netsharc wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't the exits have signs to say where the exit takes you? In Europe they'd be labeled, and highway onramps will have a different background color to indicate a highway.. Also, keeping your navigation display "north up" is much better than having one that will probably be laggy in a roundabout, confusing you on which exit to take. If all else fails, look at the signage; I remember driving and a passenger not sure if…

I think part of the issue is that it’s multi-lane. So if you’re in the right-lane to go to one road, and miss it, staying in the right-lane forces you onto the highway. If there is a car in the left lane you can’t get over to avoid it without causing an accident, or stopping, which would backup the whole circle and also risk accidents. So you end up paying the 9 mile tax. There is no way to miss your turn and easily…

Indeed. I've seen a number of stuffed-up multi-lane roundabouts in the States.

I've also seen a trio of 3 of them be adjusted (by changing lane markings and signage -- nothing of grand expense) in a way that was much more sensible and easier to follow than the original design.

It seems to me that a lot of the issues with them could be eliminated by having a bail-out path that is both safe and acceptable.

Logically, it seems like this ideally means providing the opportunity to simply go 'round again and do it over.

Or where that's not possible and there must be a lane with an irrevocable default exit, then: That exit should be low-cost and provide an opportunity nearby to safely stop and spend as much time as it takes to re-evaluate a second attempt.

It should never dump a driver into an unexpected 9-mile-long Pavlovian clusterfuck.

Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#116

Post by ensignavenger »

lmm wrote: post #100
bnralt wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Online I see this mentality that roundabouts are great no matter what and it seems really strange to me. It really depends on the design of the roundabout and the traffic conditions. Where I grew up there are a lot of roundabouts, but many of them are so dangerously designed I started actively avoiding them. It’s not that you can’t poorly design a four way stop, but it seems to be much less common, for whatever reaso…

They absolutely are. Even if they don't prevent all collisions, they turn T-bones into glancing hits and so save a lot of lives. The worst roundabout beats the best 4-way stop any day of the week. Sometimes there really are easy answers.

In some cases, I see roundabouts used in places a stoplight would be much better. It isn't roundabouts vs 4-way stops, its roundabouts vs a whole bunch of other options.

Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#117

Post by mway »

thepaulmcbride wrote: post #35

I live in the US now, but originally from Ireland. My least favourite part of US road infrastructure is the 4 way stop. They are just not good compared to a roundabout. Half the time the only way you can tell it’s an all way stop is by looking for the back of the stop signs on the perpendicular road. With a roundabout, you only have to look in one direction, and if it’s clear, you don’t even have to stop.

Unfortunately, most drivers I've observed in the US seem utterly confounded by roundabouts, particularly the yielding part. The roundabouts I've experienced - there are several where I live - are mostly single-lane, and are still very nerve wracking to drive around because other drivers behave very unpredictably. Then again, I also see folks struggling with (or intentionally ignoring) queuing for 4+ way stops.

That said, I agree with your points, and I personally prefer roundabouts to queuing stops. They flow so much better, and really help to improve congestion/bottlenecking.

Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#118

Post by Schiendelman »

jghn wrote: post #13
nostromo wrote: post #11

Seattle Department of Transportation and Washington State DOT have honestly gotten way too creative. It's like every city, every locale, and sometimes every street has a new collection of obstacles and rules to circumnavigate. Roundabouts are great, but they should probably be round. In this case, it seems that it'd be easy to navigate if the two roads were brought into a single, simple roundabout intersection like y…

It is intentional. The idea is to force drivers to reduce speed, and the mechanism is because it isn't familiar to the drivers. The claim is it forces them to be thoughtful. Whether or not it works or is a good idea is not something on which I'm opining.

It's basically always safer to make a higher speed driver uncomfortable continuing at high speed. Reducing high speed through driver discomfort is 99% of what saves lives in road design.

Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#119

Post by Schiendelman »

mozzieman wrote: post #44

The comment section on the youtube video is soo good. Everyone seem to almost have accidents and everyone complaining. Think prob they need to work a bit on this design.

The fact that the learning curve is "almost" crashes means it's working well.

Re: We're excited about our new roundabout

#120

Post by bnralt »

makeitdouble wrote: post #114
bnralt wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Online I see this mentality that roundabouts are great no matter what and it seems really strange to me. It really depends on the design of the roundabout and the traffic conditions. Where I grew up there are a lot of roundabouts, but many of them are so dangerously designed I started actively avoiding them. It’s not that you can’t poorly design a four way stop, but it seems to be much less common, for whatever reaso…

You can mess roundabouts, but it requires a sever lack of competence that we rarely see TBH, and it can be progressively improved (signage, better visibility, lines etc) I'm with you on how some will still be dangerous, and can require traffic stops. But it's still better than going back to a plain stops IMHO, and it's usually in portions where it was already dangerous before putting in the roundabout. In practice I'…

I don't think most of the ones here could be easily reversed, for what it's worth. The streets were designed with them in mind, so they're usually at the exact spot where 3-5 different roads intersect.

The number of bad roundabouts is pretty common here, though. But it wouldn't entirely surprise me (based on other things I've seen) if there was a level of local incompetence that went beyond the norm. You're right that they can be improved, but (I mentioned this in another reply), sometimes that takes years or decades for whatever reason (and even then, they don't fix all of the issues).

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