XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support • Hacker News Board

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#81

Post by sweeter » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 8:39 PM UTC

hackyhacky wrote: post #19

treve wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious where you're having trouble. It seemed to me that this was quite bad at first (completely broken) and every application had to add explicit support, but I've had no problem with Firefox, Zoom and Slack recently. Just Microsoft Teams, but webcams don't even work in Teams.

Not the GP, but I have a workflow that depends on the functionality in x11vnc, which allows me to script sharing of individual windows, regions, or desktops. AFAIK, nothing comparable exists in Wayland, and there isn't even the possibility to bring something like that to non-wlroots environments. So I'm stuck on X11 for now.

There's really nothing that can be said then but I personally use `waypipe` like this `waypipe ssh user@127.0.0.1 sway` so that I can run remote sessions and it works amazingly. I sometimes use it to run GUI apps like thunar on my home laptop with tailscale when Im not at home. its basically `ssh -x`

https://manpages.opensuse.org/Tumbleweed/waypipe/waypipe.1.e...

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#82

Post by bitwize » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 8:39 PM UTC

EasyMark wrote: post #55

olliej wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, ok, so X apps can run under Wayland, because Wayland DEs can run an X server (an existing X impl, or does Wayland provide an X translation layer/impl?) But the DE/window manager is what is actually responsible for deciding when/where to provide that interface? For actual rendering+windows etc the DE is communicating entirely through Wayland specific APIs? I guess the operation mode is similar to how you would run…

There is no reverse equivalent of Wayland->X11 to my knowledge. Just the X11->Wayland via XWayland .

Weston has (for the time being) an X11 backend.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#83

Post by p_l » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 8:41 PM UTC

olliej wrote: post #31

Ok, I’m super confused, how much work is involved in supporting Wayland vs Xserver? [editing to add: my assumption that it isn’t is due to this post - xfce is what I used to use because it was lightweight, but if such a lightweight manager requires significant adoption effort it would imply that Wayland isn’t X API+new extension] I had thought that Wayland was still functionally an implementation of the X server prot…

The core wayland does not even implement the idea of a window, to show how far the differences go.

Based on experiences of an acquaintance writing from scratch support for wayland for an UI framework that shares absolutely zero code with any of the major ones, the differences in even basic things like how to implement drop-down menu are staggering.

Funnily enough, said acquaintances needs would have been fully covered by slightly more capable XRender and a way to synchronize to VSync that does not depend on GLX.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#84

Post by sanqui » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 8:41 PM UTC

hackyhacky wrote: post #19

treve wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious where you're having trouble. It seemed to me that this was quite bad at first (completely broken) and every application had to add explicit support, but I've had no problem with Firefox, Zoom and Slack recently. Just Microsoft Teams, but webcams don't even work in Teams.

Not the GP, but I have a workflow that depends on the functionality in x11vnc, which allows me to script sharing of individual windows, regions, or desktops. AFAIK, nothing comparable exists in Wayland, and there isn't even the possibility to bring something like that to non-wlroots environments. So I'm stuck on X11 for now.

Check out waypipe. It's not compatible with every piece of software, but when it works, it's like one of those magic "run x application over the network" legends except it actually works well.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#85

Post by ahartmetz » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 8:44 PM UTC

panick21_ wrote: post #72

exe34 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on X11 still and completely ignored the train wreck, hoping it'll go away eventually.

X11 is basically already unsupported, pretty much all the developers moved to Wayland. Even the BSD and everybody else relaying on X11 has noticed that and they know they can't maintain X11 by themselves. It will 100x not go away, there is no way. Literally all big stakeholder both open source (Gnome, KDE, Fedora and so on) and companies like Valve are all in on Wayland. The reality is, X11 is a complete train wreck…

I mean yeah. Wayland started with a feature aversion from its initial developer, then continued with feature avoidance by committee, the committee in turn required by the "everyone gets to implement the X server equivalent" design and some of the trouble coming particularly from "everyone" including Gnome. Some of these missing features are really not considered optional at this point by many desktop Linux users. But there aren't many left now. I'll probably make the switch in 0.5-3 years ;)

What is there in Wayland is really quite clean though, so it will... EVENTUALLY... be pretty good.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#86

Post by bitwize » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 8:46 PM UTC

olliej wrote: post #42

kelnos wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland is an entirely new display system that's completely incompatible with X11. X11 apps can generally run under Wayland, but through XWayland, an X server that runs nested under a Wayland compositor.

Oh, ok, so X apps can run under Wayland, because Wayland DEs can run an X server (an existing X impl, or does Wayland provide an X translation layer/impl?) But the DE/window manager is what is actually responsible for deciding when/where to provide that interface? For actual rendering+windows etc the DE is communicating entirely through Wayland specific APIs? I guess the operation mode is similar to how you would run…

Xwayland is basically Xorg with a Wayland DDX layer -- and it recently got a rootful mode. So that means it's possible to run a complete X desktop, including WM, on top of a Wayland compositor.

However, the drawback is that with the exception maybe of Weston, one does not simply start up a Wayland compositor. You need to have support for logind seats and that sort of thing. So unless you want to spend an afternoon assembling the components like a piece of flat-pack furniture from Target, you basically need systemd and a distro that bundled those components for you the right way.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#87

Post by TrueSlacker0 » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 8:46 PM UTC

sweeter wrote: post #53

bongodongobob wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Y'all need to remember this in those threads when you say Linux just works and MS's registry is stupid and needs tweaking to work right.

This guy was using Gentoo on what I'm guessing is an older laptop. That kind of comes with the territory. You don't use LFS or Gentoo as a daily driver and expect not to do some footwork... but if you use Mint, Fedora, Pop_OS, Ubuntu/Debian etc... it pretty much is "just works." Of course, you have to do stuff on pretty much any PC, Windows, Mac or Linux. I own them all and know this to be the case... it's just that…

"but if you use Mint, Fedora, Pop_OS, Ubuntu/Debian etc... it pretty much is "just works." "

I just started to make the transfer to Linux from windows. I have limited experience after running Ubuntu on a dual boot laptop back in school a long time ago. It wasnt my daily driver at the time but class required it.

I recently downloaded fedora onto a desktop and it has been a horrid experience. It's sooo slow compared to when windows was on the same hardware. It's so bad the kids won't use the computer unless it's the last one available. I regret the switch, but want the results. I cannot seem figure out what's causing it.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#88

Post by AlienRobot » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 8:52 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #77

jmclnx wrote: post #5

If I had to use a Desktop environment in Linux, it would be XFCE. But, this Wayland thing is pushing me over to the BSDs. So far I have no abandoned Linux and I doubt Wayland will become mandatory until Firefox stops supporting X.

This "Wayland thing" is what the X devs would rather work on instead of X. It's the future. Best to rip the Band-Aid off now.

I used Windows 7 until Steam stopped working. The band-aid stays on.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#89

Post by iso8859-1 » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 8:53 PM UTC

infamia wrote: post #48

bogwog wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always like to use the lightweight and less resource intensive software, but arguably not using hardware acceleration is actually very resource hungry. What hardware are you using where KDE is considered "resource intensive", yet it also has a GPU that supports Vulkan and hardware video decoding? I've used KDE for a long time, and can't remember a time when I noticed its resource usage (and I used to daily drive…

I notice KDE's resource utilization more or less constantly. With KDE's bling turned all the way down, Kwin constantly uses 5-10% CPU when I am literally doing nothing (with my hands off the mouse/keyboard). This causes my laptop fans to noticeably spin up and makes them a lot more prone to spinning up more forcefully while doing a small task. With XFCE, my fan never audibly spins up unless I'm actively doing somethi…

Laptops with loud fans makes it really easy to find inefficient software.

Most people nowadays would just get a fanless computer and give up on fighting the bloat. But I appreciate your sacrifice, thank you.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#90

Post by AlienRobot » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 8:54 PM UTC

panick21_ wrote: post #72

exe34 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on X11 still and completely ignored the train wreck, hoping it'll go away eventually.

X11 is basically already unsupported, pretty much all the developers moved to Wayland. Even the BSD and everybody else relaying on X11 has noticed that and they know they can't maintain X11 by themselves. It will 100x not go away, there is no way. Literally all big stakeholder both open source (Gnome, KDE, Fedora and so on) and companies like Valve are all in on Wayland. The reality is, X11 is a complete train wreck…

>X11 is basically already unsupported, pretty much all the developers moved to Wayland

In my view, Wayland is basically unsupported. GNOME and KDE support it. XFCE, Lxqt, Mate, and Cinnamon don't. It's been over 10 years. You could make a whole DE from scratch in this time.