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Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

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Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#111

Post by suzzer99 »

changing1999 wrote: post #15

I would like to see a comparison with other types of physical exercise that contain an element of continuous learning. Wrestling, BJJ, even boxercise, crossfit and such. Since the argument seems to be specifically about learning new routines and how that impacts neuroplasticity, dance vs other more cognitively challenging workouts would be an interesting comparison.

Peter Attia had a guest on his podcast who said something along these lines. He was really into training people to do Olympic lifting because of the cognitive component that goes along with the exercise. He also said hiking is good because the terrain is inconsistent, and you have to think about each step to some degree.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#112

Post by zeroxfe »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #99
alaithea wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've danced extensively, and tap can be brutal for the sheer number of steps you need to remember. Other dance disciplines, like ballet, tend to chunk sets of smaller movements into a larger, named one, so once you learn those sequences, it's easy to learn and recall longer routines. The way ballet is put together aligns with advice from brain science about chunking objects in memory for better recall. But tap has fe…

>chunking objects in memory for better recall // Can you share your source on this? Tangentially related wittering (I have flu, I'm a bit illucid rn): I do karate, I find sequenced moves to be a real mental struggle. But then I couldn't skip until I was a teenager. I blame/describe that as arrhythmia. I can't clap in time either.

>>chunking objects in memory for better recall //

> Can you share your source on this?

I haven't seen the research on this, but it makes intuitive sense to me as a musician. It was the only way I could learn long complex pieces.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#113

Post by foobar1962 »

WalterBright wrote: post #86
changing1999 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if you have experienced martial arts. It's constant learning. Sparring is a small part of the process. See kata in karate, hundreds of moves and transitions in BJJ, etc

No, I'm not familiar with martial arts. I didn't consider it an exercise routine.

Wax on, wax off?

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#114

Post by foobar1962 »

michaelteter wrote: post #42
klyrs wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That said, dance is a really fun way to package repetitive movements. And if younger people did more of it, the men on this site would spend less time bitching about how hard it is to meet women. *cough*

Yes, you will “meet” more women by dancing than by playing games on your computer. That doesn’t necessarily mean you will make any meaningful connections. Simply going places and interacting with people will also help you meet women. In fact, I think you’d sooner find a date by becoming a grocery store employee than a dancer, because you’re more likely to be having conversations with the people you meet. Dancing, esp…

> Yes, you will “meet” more women by dancing than by playing games on your computer. That doesn’t necessarily mean you will make any meaningful connections.

This. I have been learning Argentine Tango for over 10 years. Going from the "dancing together in close embrace" to "let's meet later for coffee" is still has difficult as ever. More so with tango: the phrase "why buy the cow when you get the milk for free" comes to mind, often. Note that I've made some very good friends through the dance, but it's tough getting out of the friend zone.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#115

Post by kelnos »

ericmcer wrote: post #37

I don't have any science behind this, but it makes sense that training more complex motions would trigger greater brain improvements. Dance vs basketball or some other high coordination/skill activity might have less disparity than say dance vs. exercise bike.

Sure, it sounds like it would make sense, but that's not necessarily how the brain actually works.

This study doesn't really seem to prove or even suggest anything either way, assuming GP's evaluation of their methodology is correct.

"Armchair neuroscientist" is not a game anyone can play well. (I say this because I know several actual neuroscientists, and they are constantly telling me about ways the brain works that are very counterintuitive.)

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#116

Post by kelnos »

_yb2s wrote: post #79
macintux wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as someone who tried to take a tap class as an adult, only to discover it was for people who were already experienced dancers: yes, dance training is vastly more complex than exercise. Update: what absolutely killed me is that we would run through a complex step two or three times, and we were expected to be able to practice at home. I didn't understand what we were doing while we were doing it, there was no…

I have experience with a few types of dance including salsa and bachata, and also compete as a strength athlete- and find some of the more complex weight lifting moves- such as the push jerk- a lot harder and more technical than anything I’ve learned dancing. If every aspect of your timing and form aren’t perfect, it simply does not work at heavier weights, and can take years of constant practice to perfect. The extr…

I think that's the exception that proves the rule, though, no?

The majority of strength and cardio exercises are fairly simple to learn. Getting your form 100% correct is certainly more work, but generally not much.

Basic partner dancing can certainly seem fairly simple, but you very quickly move out of that and into the realm of most things being complicated. And even with the basics, if you actually focus on the technique, it's already a lot more complicated than most workout exercises.

I do expect that some forms of martial arts could be comparable (or perhaps even higher) in complexity to partner dance, though. But I'm not sure if I'd consider martial arts to be exercise as much as it's a sport or hobby.

(Source: former competitive ballroom and latin dancer.)

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#117

Post by kelnos »

WalterBright wrote: post #94
vunderba wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agree. Not to mention that the goal of a dance partner isn't usually to surprise you, whereas in most forms of sparring, you are constantly trying to anticipate your opponent and adapt to them.

Anticipating and adapting is how lead-follow dances work, especially when your partner is not your usual partner. The follower anticipates and adapts to the leader, the leader anticipates and adapts to the follower's skill and knowledge level. A good lead will make the follower look good and feel good. A leader is also responsible for collision avoidance with other couples, and enables the follower to have confidence…

I generally agree with you, but GP and above were talking about martial arts, not jogging. I expect there's likely not much conversation going on between sparring partners, either.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#118

Post by mewpmewp2 »

kelnos wrote: post #115
ericmcer wrote: post #37

I don't have any science behind this, but it makes sense that training more complex motions would trigger greater brain improvements. Dance vs basketball or some other high coordination/skill activity might have less disparity than say dance vs. exercise bike.

Sure, it sounds like it would make sense, but that's not necessarily how the brain actually works. This study doesn't really seem to prove or even suggest anything either way, assuming GP's evaluation of their methodology is correct. "Armchair neuroscientist" is not a game anyone can play well. (I say this because I know several actual neuroscientists, and they are constantly telling me about ways the brain works tha…

Out of curiousity do you have any examples of some of the ways?

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#119

Post by jon_richards »

bogtog wrote: post #19

I do MRI work, and my gut is that none of the claims about dance vs. exercise would replicate. The behavioral data suggests that activity of some type will improve cognitive function (main effects of time). Such beneficial effects of activity on the brain have been shown before, and this is generally accepted. However, the authors' behavioral data doesn't show any difference between the dance vs. exercise groups. Thi…

See also the dead salmon study https://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/scicurious-brain/ign...

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#120

Post by starluz »

bogtog wrote: post #19

I do MRI work, and my gut is that none of the claims about dance vs. exercise would replicate. The behavioral data suggests that activity of some type will improve cognitive function (main effects of time). Such beneficial effects of activity on the brain have been shown before, and this is generally accepted. However, the authors' behavioral data doesn't show any difference between the dance vs. exercise groups. Thi…

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