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Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

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Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#191

Post by epolanski »

itsoktocry wrote: post #163
epolanski wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it absurd how Americans can't give up on their suburbs and car centric development dystopia and then spend so much time in their cars.

> I find it absurd how Americans can't give up on their suburbs and car centric development dystopia and then spend so much time in their cars I agree that kind of commute is insane, but maybe we don't all want to raise our families in shoe boxes (often surrounded by filth and crime) in the city centre (as if everyone in France lives in downtown Paris). You may find that thrilling, but I don't. None of it.

Your arguments has way too many fallacies, like if the US has any shortage of crime and filth filled suburbs, but I'll cut it short.

Everybody should live in the context they prefer.

That being said, if the suburb dystopia was instead built around sensible public transport with good trains, metros and well planned gathering and commercial areas I could have some sympathy.

But no, everything is planned and built around the concept of owning and driving a car for everything.

Which is also why you end up having so many suburbs that are the facto dumpster ghettos, people not owning a car cannot even easily commute daily to a job available downtown.

Good public transport and proper city planning are some of the best social equalizers and life improving engines out there. For everybody, including and especially people wanting their own home rather than living in apartments (that by the way don't have to be small, albeit smaller dimensions have plenty of benefits too).

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#192

Post by Ancalagon »

janalsncm wrote: post #46

RTO is effectively a cut to your hourly wage since you need to commute. I think people would be less sore about it if Amazon and others extended an olive branch of “commute time pay” or something. (And no, free food and snacks don’t count. Amazon doesn’t have that anyways.)

I just start my commute during work hours now and take standups from the car.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#193

Post by deanCommie »

xyst wrote: post #12

They say this now. But in 12 months (or the next layoff period), they will move from hybrid to full RTO. Still a shitty move to mandate RTO. Most people (IT folks) have spoke with do this routine: 0) daily routine to prepare for day 1) 1 hr commute to shitty office 2) login to computer, do calls with cross regional (and international) teams over Zoom/Teams/Webex or whatever conferencing system 3) teleconferencing wit…

You're making it sound as if working from home was something that everyone did eternally, and not something that started in 2020 out of necessity.

Going through your routine:

1) Noone forced these workers to live 1 hour from the office. In fact in the beforeCOVID times, people made an effort to live closer to where they work. Sure many can't afford to, but we're not talking about baristas here, right? But highly paid IT staff.

In the cases like Google the office is far from shitty.

In the cases like Amazon, the offices are more mid, but located central to where people live in cities. (We'll come back to this)

2/3/4) Legitimate problem, that exists SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE OF HYBRID. If everyone RTOs 5 days a week like Amazon did, it's no longer an issue.

6) If it's a nice office like Google the food isn't shitty. If it's a mid office like Amazon, it's downtown surrounded by the best restaurants/cafes the city has to offer.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#194

Post by epolanski »

10xalphadev wrote: post #156
epolanski wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it absurd how Americans can't give up on their suburbs and car centric development dystopia and then spend so much time in their cars.

I live within an European city - not downtown, but relatively close. My commute by car over ~10km is 18-20 mins, same distance by public transport takes 40-50 mins, depending on train reliability and workers not striking. So change my mind?

What's there to change your mind? There are areas that are poorly connected and cars are much more convenient.

I live outside Rome, Italy, my SO works downtown. It takes her 35ish minutes to get to work by train, it would take her way more than one hour by car.

Hell, it takes her colleagues living in Rome center often an hour to get to work on a 6 km drive.

The funniest thing was when I worked with a guy that commuted by train from Naples! That's 150 miles away. And he would still get back home quicker by train than people living in Rome.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#195

Post by epolanski »

hiatus wrote: post #143
epolanski wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it absurd how Americans can't give up on their suburbs and car centric development dystopia and then spend so much time in their cars.

What steps do you suggest an average person take?

None? This has to be dealt with at city planning level by investing in proper public transport. Because money in US only subsidizes car drivers.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#196

Post by deanCommie »

cush wrote: post #51

I know multiple people who worked at Amazon (I say worked because they've recently quit) who would log two of their three weekly badges by going in the office at 11:59pm, and again at 12:01 am. Their team, managers, and collaborators never actually expected them at their desks. It was all to appease this mandate. It's not surprising that Amazon has moved to 5 days a week despite so many people gaming the system and n…

The irony is that these people are exactly the reason why Amazon HAD to move to 5 days a week.

Because people didn't actually embrace the hybrid model, wasted time on petty protests like this, undermined morale and the hypothetical benefits of in-person colocation.

If everyone actually tried 3 days a week, and had the benefits of in-person collaboration (instead of people coming in to the office to just sit on Zoom calls), then maybe the company could've kept doing 3 days a week instead of forcing everyone to 5.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#197

Post by 0cf8612b2e1e »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #28
0cf8612b2e1e wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is simple enough to break it down by area. If a city has N people per city block, but a suburb has 1/N people per city block you lose out on all economies of scale. Each individual dwelling requires water, electrical, gas, roads, etc. More efficient to amortize that across more people per unit of infrastructure. A road is always going up cost $/foot. Best if that road is being used by 100k people per day instead o…

Yes but that’s a cost of infrastructure angle, not an argument for who is subsidizing whom. I’m saying the fact that the economy is unnecessarily focused into cities makes suburbs look worse in tax revenue but it doesn’t have to be that way.

You cannot ignore infrastructure costs and then ask who is subsidizing whom. Infrastructure is an enormous governmental expense. Not just the initial installation, but the ongoing maintenance as well. Economies of scale are always going to result in the higher density installation being more cost effective.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#198

Post by deanCommie »

skzv wrote: post #18

I go to the office almost everyday by choice. Free food, snacks, and coffee, gym, and medical clinics on campus. And it's just nice to get dressed and leave the house. But it's really nice to have the flexibility to WFH when I need to, especially just mornings to skip traffic.

You are in the silent majority.

This is a lukewarm take shared by most, but it at best doesn't cause outrage or go viral, and at worst gets you accused of being a bootlicker for the C-suite.

So none of us speak up and the dominant perspective continues that nobody wants to actually go to the office.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#199

Post by [deleted] »

tesch1 wrote: post #149
epolanski wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it absurd how Americans can't give up on their suburbs and car centric development dystopia and then spend so much time in their cars.

Because door-to-door transport is faster than public transportation. Average American commute time is 26 minutes, what is it where you live? https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter8/urban-trans... .

[deleted]

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#200

Post by kstrauser »

ryandrake wrote: post #45
worstspotgain wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Bay Area, 1-hour commutes are generally for older and apartment people. Younger family people are in the 2+ range.

When I lived in the Bay Area, my commute was ~2.5 hours each way. I would have killed for a 1 hour commute.

I had a commute from East Bay that was a 30 minute bus ride to downtown SF and a 15 minute walk. I didn’t mind it so much when I had to do that daily. The bus ride was a great time to read a book or the news. The walk was a nice chance to get some air and exercise and practice mindfulness, or to go the opposite way and listen to a podcast or some music.

I far prefer my current commute of walking downstairs. I could abide the 45 minute ride-and-walk commute if there were a legitimate reason I needed to be somewhere in person. No one would pay me enough to commute 5 hours a day.

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