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Employers Say Students Need AI Skills. What If Students Don't Want Them?

insidehighered.com

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Re: Employers Say Students Need AI Skills. What If Students Don't Want Them?

#61
post #6

AI is just another tool. A pretty good one. And there is a skill to using it efficiently. If you ask it dumb questions, you will get dumb answers. Garbage in, garbage out. I am a software developer and I hire devs as well. If somebody is ignorant of AI or refuses to use it, that is hard pass for me. It is not all that different from an accountant not wanting to use computers. Sure, you could still do some work. But,…

Exactly. I expect people to know, be proficient with, and use all relevant tools available to them. Including AI; but not just AI. There are a lot of people trying to argue why they don't want/need to use certain tools. A job interview would be the wrong place to have that argument. A good, open interview question these days would be asking candidates how they are using AI in their work and what challenges they are f…

> It takes 1 minute to generate perfectly usable documentation.

Ok. So why generate it at all? Just have the user generate it when needed or automate as part of the build. Seems like option 3, the lazy option, might be the right one.

Re: Employers Say Students Need AI Skills. What If Students Don't Want Them?

#63

Maybe employers are just believing the hype from companies like OpenAI. The student responses seemed spot on to me. They need to learn the material and how to do their job, not chat with a bot.

So, I was just talking about this with a boss in another division (we're in biotech). They said that using the AI tools developed internally were, in about 2 years, going to be mandatory.

Now, they are in the customer facing documentation part of the business. Think manuals for all the myriad products we make, in all the many languages, and all the many regulatory systems. The job is exacting, precise, and must make sense to readers at the end of the day. Many manuals go through countless revisions and take months to release under all the requirements. Large parts of the job are pretty boring and automatable though.

So, they've been aggressively perusing AI tools for large parts of the boilerplate work and the formatting work. It turns out, that most of the hard parts of the job, the xml formatting and translation, are very easy to automate with AI. As in, what usually took them months of manual editing to preform now takes them seconds, with a day or two of spot checking the language. Regulatory requirements review still take just as long.

Here is where all the nerds here on HN can't believe that you're not using LaTeX or something.'How could it have taken them months?!'

They're all English majors above 50 years old. They have never coded anything in their lives. All this work was previously being done in MS Word. They at least had some sort of central file repo beforehand, but now they all use git and managed to stand up their own servers. I'm sure all of this is being done poorly, but it's being done in the first place. The alternative was much worse.

It's not just that the AI is managing to help them make xml skeletons in the blink of an eye, it's that AI told them and taught them about xml at all. It taught them about git too, and I'm sure a lot of other things they never knew about. AI is a really patient teacher.

So, the thing is that there is a lot of internal pushback against AI. From what I was told, there is about half the team that refuses to touch AI. Thinks it's the devil, that they can always do it better, do it faster, etc.

So far, the company line is that they are right and that you can elect to use AI or not. But that boss I was talking to said that the internal vibe of the higherups is that in about 2 years, you're going to be forced to use it or let go. Their internal numbers (no idea what those are, this is all third-hand info now, believe me if you want) are pointing out that using AI has just so much better results that it's going to be a job requirement going forward.

So, as one piece of anecdata, doing at least a few jobs is going to be, very soon, chatting with a bot too.

Re: Employers Say Students Need AI Skills. What If Students Don't Want Them?

#64
post #49
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they need to learn the material at first , and then, if it is beneficial for the situation, they need to learn the shortcomings and pitfalls of AI (both generically and specifically to their use case) before using it. You're right in that AI is a tool that might be necessary to use, but just like with a heavy industry machine tool that can chop your arm off if you use it wrong, there need to be operator training…

Machine tools are deterministic enough: they have interlocks and if you defeat the interlocks or put your hand in a specific space, you're in trouble. Is AI deterministic enough for this approach to safety?

No - the interlocks on heavy machinery don't replace training requirements. They only prevent the worst mistakes when an operator has a bad day or momentary lapse. These environments have rules requiring both the machinery to have these interlocks as well as operator training.

As a matter of fact, I'd extend this argument the other way around: AI might be deterministic enough per your argument, but that's not an interlock. An interlock for an AI would be some type of interaction limiting that prevents the worst garbage outputs. We already have some "AI interlocks" like that, in the form of censoring it from generating "socially inappropriate" output. Maybe someone can invent further "AI fuses", for example when the AI itself detects it's being asked to do complex math, and it is known that this AI can't in fact do math. (This could work on either input, internal state, or output. Also note most interlocks aren't "perfect".)

Re: Employers Say Students Need AI Skills. What If Students Don't Want Them?

#65
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (I already know some people who got in trouble for using AI to write important emails and were then threatened with lawsuits for language in those emails that they themselves, of course, did not read). Of course, the solution to that is to have an AI that scans your email for problematic language.

Its not that the language was "problematical," its just that the contents were more sensitive then I think they realized, and so they were held to account for the specificities of the language they used.

Well, just use an AI that scans for that problem, then.

(I'm not entirely serious, but also not entirely joking. Looking for these kinds of red flags is probably more within the ability of contemporary systems than reliably writing prose.)

Re: Employers Say Students Need AI Skills. What If Students Don't Want Them?

#66
post #63

Maybe employers are just believing the hype from companies like OpenAI. The student responses seemed spot on to me. They need to learn the material and how to do their job, not chat with a bot.

So, I was just talking about this with a boss in another division (we're in biotech). They said that using the AI tools developed internally were, in about 2 years, going to be mandatory. Now, they are in the customer facing documentation part of the business. Think manuals for all the myriad products we make, in all the many languages, and all the many regulatory systems. The job is exacting, precise, and must make…

I think the astonishing part is that you have "skilled labour" doing data formatting in 2024. These things have been a pretty stable part of digitalisation and automation since the rise of new public management. Don't get me wrong, we still have people who copy paste data from web pages, pdf documents and so on into Excel sheets or web forms. Those are unpaid student workers though, anything that would require a paid worker doing months of work has been automated by various means. From internal software to no-code to RPA.

I think the main difference is that AI makes it more accessible. Even with previous no-code or RPA solutions, you'd frankly need a programmer to build and maintain them despite what promises the salespeople might've told you. AI changes that, at least in my experience. A lot of our automated processes are now being made by our more digitally inclined workers, and I think you're absolutely spot on that it'll be something that is required of anyone going forward. Most of these are minor things, and if they need to scale to company wide tools they're probably still going to need an actual programmer, but a lot of them are good enough to be shared within departments.

Of course people feeding sensitive data into LLM solutions is an issue we also have to deal with.

Re: Employers Say Students Need AI Skills. What If Students Don't Want Them?

#67
post #60
post #2

For the STEM students, what they need is statistics (with a focus on high level Bayesian and statistical learning theory, not just frequentist regression tricks) and differential equations. Then they can build AI. AI, or specifically deep neural network enabled machine learning, isn't some sort of magical black box solution with no weaknesses. (I will however admit that it is the best universal function approximator…

Throwing out units 6,7,8 is a horrible, horrible idea. That’s the only useful part of the curriculum. In fact, most of the rest of the sections are not even stat. They are just plain math. Rest of your suggestions are just plain wild. If there is some unicorn high schooler out there who meets your wild template - knows no calculus but knows rejection sampling and MH - I would like to see which foolish employer hires…

> Rest of your suggestions are just plain wild. If there is some unicorn high schooler out there who meets your wild template - knows no calculus but knows rejection sampling and MH - I would like to see which foolish employer hires this clown.

The point is to build intuition, those take time and unless the student is particularly mathematically inclined, you can't rush it. That's why you have to start in high school. Right now, the focus of pre calc is to induce them into calculus through slopes, limits, and derivatives. But a good chunk of high level statistics don't need that to build intuition. For example, we generally teach students y=mx+b in middle school and high school. This is considered a perfectly normal part of math education. It's accepted that the students may not understand the full meaning of linearity and regression at first, but at higher levels the formula would be second nature to them. This is the point I am trying to make about statistical learning (not specifically Bayesian theory in particular, but the key concepts around it). Generative ML and stuff like LLMs require a specific frame of mine and view of the world, and it's best to develop it early. The way we are teaching statistical learning theory, at the lower levels, is essentially dumping a massive bag of tricks on them and hoping for the best. We need to change that approach and start treating it like pre-calc and algebra, something to be taught level by level, with building intuition as a core focus. It's not easy to communicate the idea that "the next word prediction of the LLM (depending on the model) is generally the joint probability of all other words that come before it by sampling from a multidimensional probability distribution" to most 14-16 year olds.

Re: Employers Say Students Need AI Skills. What If Students Don't Want Them?

#68
post #67
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throwing out units 6,7,8 is a horrible, horrible idea. That’s the only useful part of the curriculum. In fact, most of the rest of the sections are not even stat. They are just plain math. Rest of your suggestions are just plain wild. If there is some unicorn high schooler out there who meets your wild template - knows no calculus but knows rejection sampling and MH - I would like to see which foolish employer hires…

> Rest of your suggestions are just plain wild. If there is some unicorn high schooler out there who meets your wild template - knows no calculus but knows rejection sampling and MH - I would like to see which foolish employer hires this clown. The point is to build intuition, those take time and unless the student is particularly mathematically inclined, you can't rush it. That's why you have to start in high school…

I think this is a very constructive proposal. I am definitely on board with it.

I don't see why we should shoehorn these topics into ap-stats. That curriculum is entirely based on classical statistics, which is very useful for what it does.

But suppose there were an ap-ml, where we have word prediction of LLMs, maybe an attempt to teach multi-dim distributions without calculus (ha! I'm seriously skeptical of that, but its your idea), rejection sampling and a suite of easy to code mcmc recipes - MH, Gibbs, Slice Sampling, Importance Sampling, and a dash of Bayesian theory - if there were such a course, it would be quite popular among the high schoolers I work with.

btw, college board does revamp ap curriculum quite often. AP African American Studies was introduced last year. Maybe AP-ML is on the cards.

Re: Employers Say Students Need AI Skills. What If Students Don't Want Them?

#69
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm so, soooo sick of people claiming so certainly AGI will be there in X time. You don't know. Nobody knows. Anyone claiming they know are full of shit. Stop speaking in absolutes.

I still remember people said fusion energy will be available in a few decades, in a few decades ago.

The rest of this comment chain aside, this is silly. "Someone predicted something wrong before so all predictions are sure to be wrong going forward."

Re: Employers Say Students Need AI Skills. What If Students Don't Want Them?

#70
post #68
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rest of your suggestions are just plain wild. If there is some unicorn high schooler out there who meets your wild template - knows no calculus but knows rejection sampling and MH - I would like to see which foolish employer hires this clown. The point is to build intuition, those take time and unless the student is particularly mathematically inclined, you can't rush it. That's why you have to start in high school…

I think this is a very constructive proposal. I am definitely on board with it. I don't see why we should shoehorn these topics into ap-stats. That curriculum is entirely based on classical statistics, which is very useful for what it does. But suppose there were an ap-ml, where we have word prediction of LLMs, maybe an attempt to teach multi-dim distributions without calculus (ha! I'm seriously skeptical of that, bu…

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