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YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

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Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#261

Post by llm_trw »

drpossum wrote: post #63
llm_trw wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a conversation I keep having with people who support permissive licenses. >Oh no, you're allowed to do whatever you want, but you shouldn't. >>Then why is Amazon allowed to do it if they shouldn't? >It's not polite. >>...

Not being polite will get you yelled at, as is happening right now, and should not be surprising. Legally there may be nothing and they are welcome to ruin their reputation and suffer the consequences. I find it baffling in conversations I keep having with people that someone thinks that because something is legally permissible, then it is acceptable. It's the same vein of when people cry "free speech" when they said…

This sounds like a bunch of unwritten rules that only apply to the poor. Anyone who can ignore people yelling at them from their yacht in international waters is perfectly fine.

I guess random lynchings are a way to pass the time when you are completely powerless by choice.

Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#262

Post by mmooss »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #159
drawkward wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoken as if there was only one single binary option for investment! The strategy implies that the marginal value of the lack of ethics/the personality type to do that is the thing thats worth investment. If thats true, then venture capitalism and perhaps capitalism itself is super fucked: a machine for developing and rewarding the worst impulses of humanity.

Investors cheer when Uber, Lyft, and UPS drivers are treated as contractors. They frown when they try to advocate for more rights, better employment conditions, and better pay. Such is the nature of modern capitalism. The Costco's and James Sinegal's of the world are few and rare; I wish we'd see more companies and leadership teams that valued labor and were more ethical. But a survey of the most successful CEO's (El…

> capitalism

It's business under the laws, regulations, customs, and choices of American business in 2024.

I say that because, while 'capitalism' is a significant element, many people (not you) justify or rationalize their behavior or the current 'system' by asserting it's a law of human nature or economics, not their choices that yield their behavior and the system, and both can change. It's like criminals who say 'hate the game, not the player'.

Inevitability is a lazy argument for lazy thinkers and irresponsible people (again, to emphasize, the parent didn't make it). It's the corruption of power - they can do what they want, and therefore nobody can compel them to think harder and get better results.

So I think it's essential to draw the distinction.

> (Ellison, Zuckerberg, Musk, et al)

Other than Ellison, even the others didn't act this way a decade ago. Silicon Valley was built by a different ethos - 'don't be evil'. Power corrupts.

Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#263

Post by solardev »

aster0id wrote: post #7

Everything is getting en-shittified, even YC itself. This has been a trend for my cohort of college graduates. Graduated right in time for a housing crisis, inflation, layoffs, etc. Can't help but feel at least a little bitter about folks who pulled the ladder up behind them.

What generation are you? I'm an early millennial and even back then we were talking about this, how the boomers left us a dying world and a crumbling society. Then my generation failed to do anything about it, and everything only got worse. I am terrified for Gen Z and Alpha who have to come into this mess. I fear their kids, if they choose to have them, will be even worse off.

Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#264

Post by aster0id »

solardev wrote: post #263
aster0id wrote: post #7

Everything is getting en-shittified, even YC itself. This has been a trend for my cohort of college graduates. Graduated right in time for a housing crisis, inflation, layoffs, etc. Can't help but feel at least a little bitter about folks who pulled the ladder up behind them.

What generation are you? I'm an early millennial and even back then we were talking about this, how the boomers left us a dying world and a crumbling society. Then my generation failed to do anything about it, and everything only got worse. I am terrified for Gen Z and Alpha who have to come into this mess. I fear their kids, if they choose to have them, will be even worse off.

Late millenial. I agree with everything you said.

Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#265

Post by wpietri »

llm_trw wrote: post #260
wpietri wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never claimed that I was reporting on the whole arc of publishing law over hundreds of years. I was laying the foundation for the next sentence, which is pointing at why this was so important to put in the US Constitution. The relevant text being, "[The Congress shall have Power . . . ] To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to…

>I never claimed that I was reporting on the whole arc of publishing law over hundreds of years. I was laying the foundation for the next sentence, which is pointing at why this was so important to put in the US Constitution. Printed press invented: circa 1440 US Constitution drafted: circa 1780 1780 - 1440 = 340 >hundreds of years Hmmm. >That's twice now that you've replied in a way that to me seems like favoring th…

I have no reason to think you even know what my argument is based on, because all I've seen are nitpicky side-tracks.

Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#266

Post by spencerchubb »

evanelias wrote: post #246
spencerchubb wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's perfectly legal to relicense Apache 2.0 license

Please point to the license provision that permits you to completely remove the license and replace it with a different one. I'll save you time: there isn't one. Nor would that ever make sense in any license, because broadly granting that right in a license would completely defeat the purpose of having any license terms at all.

lol maybe verify your claim before using such a snarky, arrogant tone

"You may add Your own copyright statement to Your modifications and may provide additional or different license terms and conditions for use, reproduction, or distribution of Your modifications, or for any such Derivative Works as a whole, provided Your use, reproduction, and distribution of the Work otherwise complies with the conditions stated in this License."

to be clear, Apache 2.0 requires you to give a copy of the license in a derivative, but does not require you to apply Apache 2.0 to a derivative. the term you are probably looking for is copyleft, which Apache 2.0 definitely does not have

Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#267

Post by llm_trw »

wpietri wrote: post #265
llm_trw wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I never claimed that I was reporting on the whole arc of publishing law over hundreds of years. I was laying the foundation for the next sentence, which is pointing at why this was so important to put in the US Constitution. Printed press invented: circa 1440 US Constitution drafted: circa 1780 1780 - 1440 = 340 >hundreds of years Hmmm. >That's twice now that you've replied in a way that to me seems like favoring th…

I have no reason to think you even know what my argument is based on, because all I've seen are nitpicky side-tracks.

>If your argument is based on false premises then there is no substance in your conclusion.

Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#268

Post by evanelias »

spencerchubb wrote: post #266
evanelias wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please point to the license provision that permits you to completely remove the license and replace it with a different one. I'll save you time: there isn't one. Nor would that ever make sense in any license, because broadly granting that right in a license would completely defeat the purpose of having any license terms at all.

lol maybe verify your claim before using such a snarky, arrogant tone "You may add Your own copyright statement to Your modifications and may provide additional or different license terms and conditions for use, reproduction, or distribution of Your modifications, or for any such Derivative Works as a whole, provided Your use, reproduction, and distribution of the Work otherwise complies with the conditions stated in…

I'm well-versed in the terms of Apache 2.0. You are misinterpreting them. The key clause here is that last one: provided Your use, reproduction, and distribution of the Work otherwise complies with the conditions stated in this License.

The entire parts of the code base you didn't modify are still copyrighted by their original authors, and are still subject to the Apache 2.0 license. This is why big tech companies make third-party open source contributors agree to CLAs; without that, they would be unable to relicense the work in the future (among other reasons).

In general, even with a permissive license, you can't just fork a project, make a trivial one-line change, call it a derivative work, and replace the license on the unmodified portions of the code base with an entirely different one. If that was the case, there would be no purpose whatsoever to having any license restrictions at all, because that loop-hole would allow anyone to trivially remove the license restrictions at will.

This is all unrelated to copyleft btw.

Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#269

Post by llm_trw »

wheels wrote: post #64
llm_trw wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Corporations have neither bodies to be punished, nor souls to be condemned, they therefore do as they like. -- Edward Thurlow

A fair point. But having the internet turn on you before you get any traction is also probably going to be a death-knell for an early stage company. It doesn't bode well for their ability to make or raise money.

Which again is not a problem for Amazon.

I can't think of a more effective way to entrench a oligopoly: small companies get screwed because if they use open source the way the big girls do they get cancelled, and they can't get big because they can't use open source the way the big girls do.

Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#270

Post by spencerchubb »

evanelias wrote: post #268
spencerchubb wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lol maybe verify your claim before using such a snarky, arrogant tone "You may add Your own copyright statement to Your modifications and may provide additional or different license terms and conditions for use, reproduction, or distribution of Your modifications, or for any such Derivative Works as a whole, provided Your use, reproduction, and distribution of the Work otherwise complies with the conditions stated in…

I'm well-versed in the terms of Apache 2.0. You are misinterpreting them. The key clause here is that last one: provided Your use, reproduction, and distribution of the Work otherwise complies with the conditions stated in this License . The entire parts of the code base you didn't modify are still copyrighted by their original authors, and are still subject to the Apache 2.0 license. This is why big tech companies m…

> you can't just fork a project, make, a trivial one-line change, call it a derivative work, and replace the license

yes you can

"You may reproduce and distribute copies of the Work or Derivative Works thereof in any medium, with or without modifications"

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