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YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

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Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#91
This reminds me of another clone that YC backed: Athens Research[1]. Supposedly, open-source alternative to Roam Research. The company barely lasted for two years before shutting down[1]. While it's laudable to create open-source alternative, I always believed copying in such cases should be spiritual, not blatant, where even your name is just a derivative of the original.

YC's decision-making has become very questionable in the past few years, and though it's cliche to say this, it just resembles a textbook fad-chasing VC firm. YC latest batch includes LumenOrbit, a startup building data-center in the space[2]. The idea is not only impractical, it's simply pointless. I am no space scientist, but I could smell the BS just from the mission statement. Amazing that smart guys at YC couldn't.

[1]: https://x.com/AthensResearch/status/1591138491379122176

[2]: https://x.com/ycombinator/status/1831074690384978072

Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#92
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a conversation I keep having with people who support permissive licenses. >Oh no, you're allowed to do whatever you want, but you shouldn't. >>Then why is Amazon allowed to do it if they shouldn't? >It's not polite. >>...

It is not that simple. Very few licenses are accepted by, e.g., Linux distributions. If you create your own modified license, for example BSD with two additional clauses that prohibit use for AI training and use in startups without significant modifications then no one will use it. That is the reason why people are forced to release under the extremely permissive licenses and hope for moral behavior by their users. T…

That's simply not free software / open source anymore. First of the four freedoms is "to use for any purpose". https://osssoftware.org/blog/free-and-open-source-software-f... And we absolutely don't need any more licenses to compare against. https://spdx.org/licenses/

Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#93
Prediction: as technology becomes more “mundane” and infiltrates more aspects of life, explicitly copying another business model or business idea itself will increasingly become normalized, even expected. Nowadays this tactic gets a bad name, but in the wider world of business, it’s pretty common to take an idea from one place and sell it elsewhere, or take something that is free and sell it for money. There are a million and one Italian restaurants, but no one gets criticized for opening yet another one (except as a poor business decision.)

And so I don’t think YC or the startup can really be blamed here for basically just finding an opportunity and capitalizing on it. They’re an investment firm, not a nonprofit out to improve the world.

What bothers me more is the deeper sense that many things which are / were free/public/etc. are now explicitly becoming private products competing in the marketplace, and not public goods. No one seems particularly interested in making public goods anymore, which is the deeper tragedy. And when events like this or the recent WordPress debacle occur, everyone is incentivized to shut their doors and stop making things open and accessible.

One of the biggest areas you can observe this in is the news/journalism. Pretty much all of the better quality sources are behind paywalls now, when they weren’t five or ten years ago. This makes business sense and perhaps it’s the only real way journalism can fund itself in the Internet age, but it also means that information is increasingly not accessible for everyone. Something like Wikipedia probably couldn’t even get started today for this very reason.

I’m not sure what the way out is, other than the traditional model of patronage from rich people. Unfortunately that group seems less and less interested in funding “cultural” things like the arts or open source software, probably because they’re increasingly comprised of technocrats with no interest in culture.

What would really be great for YC or another organization to do, therefore, would be to fund this kind of public good. Unfortunately that goes against everything in the startup zeitgeist.

Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#95
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is not that they stole the idea, it's that they literally just took an open-source codebase and filed off the serial numbers to claim it as their own proprietary work, and they did so in the most comically inept way possible. From the OP: PearAI offers an AI coding editor. The startup’s founder Duke Pan has openly said that it’s a cloned copy of another AI editor called Continue, which was covered un…

It doesn't matter so long as they didn't violate any licenses. Where the product starts and where it ends will be two totally different endpoints that are sure to diverge once they find their domain and business model.

> It doesn't matter so long as they didn't violate any licenses.

It appears that they did violate the license:

https://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.html

4. Redistribution. You may reproduce and distribute copies of the Work or Derivative Works thereof in any medium, with or without modifications, and in Source or Object form, provided that You meet the following conditions:

a. You must give any other recipients of the Work or Derivative Works a copy of this License;

c. You must retain, in the Source form of any Derivative Works that You distribute, all copyright, patent, trademark, and attribution notices from the Source form of the Work, excluding those notices that do not pertain to any part of the Derivative Works;

Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#96

I've been in the VC-backed startup space as a lead/principal engineer or technical advisor for the last 4 years. In that time, I've worked at 1 startup that closed a $100m C, one that closed a multi-million B, one that recently closed a $30m C, and one that started with a $8m seed. I've started my own startup and worked with founders of other startups on the side advising on the technical side (and once in a while bu…

Your comment is interesting but seems orthogonal to the problem at hand. We are talking about a company that clearly showed bad intent and dishonesty in their attitude. And that's doing a big disservice to the AI space coming from a high-profile incubator such as YC. If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a terrible warning.

    > a company that clearly showed bad intent and dishonesty in their attitude
You've described most "successful" startups.

FTX, Binance, Uber, etc.

The company I was in that raised a $100m C was in a real mess behind the scenes operating in a highly regulated space (one of the reasons I left; I disagreed with certain practices in principle).

Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#97
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure why people are so upset about it. 1. It reflects poorly on YC. 2. Something can be legal without being moral or ethical.

1. I disagree 2. How is it not ethical or moral? As stated above, you are allowed to resell software based on the Apache license and integrate it into a service. The original authors haven't lost anything.

You are confusing legality and morality. Legality can be an indicator of morality, in that laws tend to flow out of our moral senses. But legality is a lagging indicator, and new circumstances tend to create gaps where things are legal but not moral.

One of my favorite examples here is wire fraud. The rise of electronic communication created all sorts of new possibilities for fraud, but we didn't get the wire fraud statue until 1952. There's a biography of Joseph "The Yellow Kid" Weil, a con man from the 1890s forward, where he crows about many of the things he got away with because of that. A number of the things he did were probably legal before 1952, but that didn't make them moral before and not moral after.

Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#98
Oh the humanity!

> OHIO @parenth_: You illegally relicensed Pear to an enterprise, non open source license called "Pear Enterprise Edition (EE) license" even though Continue is Apache 2.0. Your project violates multiple terms in the Apache license. @continuedev you should sue these clowns.

> FRYING PAN & @CodeFryingPan: dawg i chatgpt'd the license, anyone is free to use our app for free for whatever they want. if there's a problem with the license just Imk i'll change it. we busy building rn can't be bothered with legal

Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#99
This is the standard low effort "here's a collection of random comments from X/Reddit" news article. There is no real substance, and this whole thing will blow over in a week as all the terminally online people move on to the next thing to get outraged about.

Re: YC criticized for backing AI startup that simply cloned another AI startup

#100
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter so long as they didn't violate any licenses. Where the product starts and where it ends will be two totally different endpoints that are sure to diverge once they find their domain and business model.

> It doesn't matter so long as they didn't violate any licenses. It appears that they did violate the license: https://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.html 4. Redistribution. You may reproduce and distribute copies of the Work or Derivative Works thereof in any medium, with or without modifications, and in Source or Object form, provided that You meet the following conditions: a. You must give any other recipient…

That's a problem to be resolved by their legal counsel and often not even a fatal problem (e.g. work out some licensing agreement).

The first job of a startup is to understand how to solve a valuable problem. If the team is solving a valuable problem, they can figure out how they want to navigate even violation of licenses.

Everything else can be negotiated.

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