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Is English a “creole Language”?

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu

51–60 of 166 posts

Re: Is English a “creole Language”?

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't even begin to cover things, even for English. First of all, "catch fire" is at least partly understandable from its constituent parts - "catch" has a great variety of related meanings, and they all have to do with something taking hold of something else; I'm sure any English speaker who has encountered both words would intuit the meaning of "catch fire" without any problem, especially if they also encoun…

> First of all, "catch fire" is at least partly understandable from its constituent parts - "catch" has a great variety of related meanings, and they all have to do with something taking hold of something else If you want to analyze it that way, you'll find that the semantics are the reverse of what you predict: when you catch fire, it's the fire that takes hold of you. > First, the article can very well be pronounce…

> If you want to analyze it that way, you'll find that the semantics are the reverse of what you predict: when you catch fire, it's the fire that takes hold of you.

That is one of the meanings of catch, just like when you catch a cold, the cold takes hold of you, or when you catch your foot on something, that thing took hold of your foot.

> This argument is predicated on forgetting the difference between use and mention. What part of speech would you say an is in that sentence? Is it an article?

Fair enough, though I would still argue that being able to make a noun out of the article in this way relies on them having a stable, recognizable, individual pronunciation.

> This is not a word-level phenomenon in any way; intrusive R also occurs between syllables of a single word, as long as there's an appropriate vowel-vowel sequence.

Well, we are trying to define what a "word" even is, so you can't bring this distinction in. A priori, "saw it" could be a word, just as my whole comment could be a single word. We are trying to come up with a formal definition of what it means to be a word; if we want "an elephant" to be a single word and "saw-r-it" to be two words, we need to come up with a distinction between these that doesn't presuppose that "saw" and "it" are separate words.

> Placing one between saw and it would not normally be viewed as altering the pronunciation of either word (Which one do you think is altered? I guess by nonrhotic standards it would have to be it), but as the application of a general rule.

Depending on the exact accent, not all words follow this rule. In certain accents, at least, it is quite specific to words that have an 'r' in their spelling (well, to words that historically had an r sound that was lost, and is usually preserved in the spelling), so "four o'clock" would get a linking R, but "saw it" would not. So at least in these cases, by your definition, we'd have to say that "four" is not an individual word, phonetically speaking. Also note that linking/intrusive R doesn't appear inside morphemes, normally, only between morphemes, or between morphemes and suffixes. So you get [Kafka-r-esque] in certain accents, but never inside, say, "dais".

> Placing /n/ between a and elephant is not the application of a general rule, it's the application of a rule specific to a.

This could also have been a general rule, that happens to apply to a single word in modern English. Regardless, as I have mentioned before, if you want to define "phonological word" as a unit whose exact pronunciation is only knowable when you have all parts present, then lots of phrases are phonological words in English, unless you add a lot of exceptions to your definition.

> You're saying that people argue over which items count as words, not that they argue over what it means to count as a word.

These are not that different in practice. If you have a good formal definition, then you should be able to say for any object whether it is a word, a part of a word, or a sequence of words. If you can't do that, you don't really have a definition. The definition you gave basically equates word with atomic, but then if "atomic" is not well defined, or even definable, then we're back to square one of not knowing what a word actually means.

Re: Is English a “creole Language”?

#54
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more about how people define the term. I don't think I've seen the position made disingenuously. Most people I've spoken to think of creole as a mixed language that becomes it's own language. To them that describes English and how it came to be. Even if you require colonisation to be part of it the position can stand. The Anglo-Saxon's colonisation by the Romans and the Normans are a big part of how the English…

You're going to have to explain how fifth century Germanic settlers in Britain were colonised by the Romans who arrived in Britain four centuries earlier and were largely a spent force by the time the Germans rolled in ...

Thanks, I'd have a hard time doing that. I got the history reversed.

Dang, and it's too late for me to add an edit now as well.

I think the broad point still stands, in spite of that error.

Re: Is English a “creole Language”?

#55
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Anglo-Saxon's colonisation by the Romans That never happened; it was the other way around.

Germanic conquerors may be first partially reverse-colonized by the culture they conquered (which heavily romanized with Celtic substrate) and then later further colonized by norman conquerors who were themselves carriers of the remnants of the Roman cultural heritage. Germanic people (franks) conquered Gaul and you wouldn't call modern french a Germanic language. Linguistic dynamics are utterly fascinating and compl…

I've been listening to The Rest is History podcast lately, and a lot of this happened in Islam via converts.

Tom Holland was saying that many now fundamental Islamic practices were imported into the faith via converts. For example such as praying 5 times a day was apparently a Zoroastrian practice.

Re: Is English a “creole Language”?

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Chinese, it's very difficult to define word boundaries. Each character is a syllable, with a particular pronunciation and a constellation of meanings, usually closely related to one another. There are very common combinations of characters that appear together, which one could define as words. However, often, you could just as easily view the individual characters as words, or the combination as a word. In some ca…

I should note that typically discussions of language are more fruitful around spoken (or signed) languages rather than writing. Writing is an artificial formal system, and as such sometimes has aspects which are much more socilogiclaly determined than spoken language, which tends to evolve more freely. Also, the problems you raise here are mostly just as applicable to English, though perhaps for somewhat fewer words.…

The issues I raise are somewhat applicable to English, but to a far lesser extent.

In Chinese, just about every syllable has its own set of meanings. In English, there are compound words, and some words have prefixes or suffixes, but you can't just arbitrarily break a word into its syllables and assign a meaning to every syllable. Imagine if the word "syllable" could be broken down as syl-la-ble, and every person who spoke English could tell you what "syl," "la" and "ble" individually meant. That's the situation in Chinese, for almost every polysyllabic word you can utter. They can almost all be decomposed into syllables that have individual meanings. It's a very different paradigm from English.

Re: Is English a “creole Language”?

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should note that typically discussions of language are more fruitful around spoken (or signed) languages rather than writing. Writing is an artificial formal system, and as such sometimes has aspects which are much more socilogiclaly determined than spoken language, which tends to evolve more freely. Also, the problems you raise here are mostly just as applicable to English, though perhaps for somewhat fewer words.…

The issues I raise are somewhat applicable to English, but to a far lesser extent. In Chinese, just about every syllable has its own set of meanings. In English, there are compound words, and some words have prefixes or suffixes, but you can't just arbitrarily break a word into its syllables and assign a meaning to every syllable. Imagine if the word "syllable" could be broken down as syl-la-ble, and every person who…

Yes, I understand there is a huge difference of the degree to which this applies to the language. I was just pointing out that none of these things should be alien to an English speaker, and even a linguist who only knew English would have had similar struggles to define "word" because of these problems (though of course they could have decided to file them under "exceptions", which doesn't work for Chinese).

Re: Is English a “creole Language”?

#60

There's a good comment on the blog: "This seems to me a rather feckless argument over how people want to define a term. Indisputably, modern English results from a blend of French and old English, in the process of which what we today call English absorbed a lot of French vocabulary, lost most of its inflection, and its verb conjugation was greatly simplified. Whether you want to call it a creole or not is pointless,…

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