Earlier quoted context omitted.
> we won’t even claim to tell you what the definition of “word” is! What's your best attempt? :-)
It's a bit like the old saying, "All models are wrong, some models are useful." The concept of a "word" is useful in everyday language, particularly in English -- it's host language, unsurprisingly enough -- and (probably) other Indo-European languages. However, in a more precise context, it breaks down because of edge cases. For example, "words" in agglutinative languages[1] (e.g., Turkish) act very differently from…
Is English a “creole Language”?
41–50 of 166 posts
Re: Is English a “creole Language”?
#42Creole is both a sociohistoric and linguistic term. The fact that the linguistic attributes are difficult to put boundaries on is extremely common for linguists: we won’t even claim to tell you what the definition of “word” is! As for whether English is a Creole, it’s important to understand the motivation for Creolistics at its origin. It started, and continues, as an effort to legitimize a set of languages that bef…
> we won’t even claim to tell you what the definition of “word” is! What's your best attempt? :-)
I’m not a linguist, but I would define a word as a part of a sentence composed out of one or more syllables, with word boundaries either implicitly or explicitly specified by different methods in different languages, e.g. by using pauses, longer or shorter phonemes, by using accents, rhythm, or intonation, or simply by remembering words as part of learning a lexical vocabulary.
A word is something that can be categorized as to which part of speech it belongs (noun, verb, adjective, adverb, etc.)
Depending on the languages it’s not always clear whether prefixes and/or suffixes are part of the word a separate words.
Similarly with compound words - do they count as a single or multiple words?
A short sentence in one language may enter another language as a single opaque word.
Re: Is English a “creole Language”?
#43The SMBC from a couple of days ago, sort of spoke to that: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/arthur
That's the cartoon the Language Log post is commenting on. It's even included at the top of the entry.
I read the headline on my iPad, just after I woke up. Just got back from my run, and I'll read the article after my shower.
I figured some helpful soul would do an RTFA, if that was the case, and was not disappointed.
Re: Is English a “creole Language”?
#44"This seems to me a rather feckless argument over how people want to define a term. Indisputably, modern English results from a blend of French and old English, in the process of which what we today call English absorbed a lot of French vocabulary, lost most of its inflection, and its verb conjugation was greatly simplified. Whether you want to call it a creole or not is pointless, what I just stated is still true."
Re: Is English a “creole Language”?
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The fact that the linguistic attributes are difficult to put boundaries on is extremely common for linguists: we won’t even claim to tell you what the definition of “word” is! The definition of a "word" is always straightforward: a word is an atomic unit of language. However, which units are or aren't atomic varies according to what it is you're measuring. Lexically, "catch fire" is an atomic entity, which cannot b…
This doesn't even begin to cover things, even for English. First of all, "catch fire" is at least partly understandable from its constituent parts - "catch" has a great variety of related meanings, and they all have to do with something taking hold of something else; I'm sure any English speaker who has encountered both words would intuit the meaning of "catch fire" without any problem, especially if they also encoun…
If you want to analyze it that way, you'll find that the semantics are the reverse of what you predict: when you catch fire, it's the fire that takes hold of you.
> First, the article can very well be pronounced independently - I can say "English has a single indefinite article, with two forms: 'a' or 'an'".
This argument is predicated on forgetting the difference between use and mention. What part of speech would you say an is in that sentence? Is it an article?
> Secondly, the 'a' form can be pronounced in two different ways, depending on how you want to highlight it within a sentence
Yes, problems arise when you need to place sentence-level stress on a feature that is too weak to bear stress. The same problem occurs for any English clitic, including 's, which in the general case doesn't even include a vowel. Most notably here, there's nothing about this specific to a before consonants; the rules for placing stress don't know what word you're following a with. If you need to stress an, the usual choice is /æ/. But also notably, when native speakers do this, they recognize it as a problem - it's just one they may not be able to work around.
> Finally, in at least some English accents, many words can be pronounced differently in certain sequences than others - for example, in modern Southern English, an "r" sound is introduced almost always in speech when a word that ends in a vowel sound is followed by another word that starts with a vowel sound, e.g. "I saw-R-it". By your description, neither "saw" nor "it" are individual word phonologically
This is not a word-level phenomenon in any way; intrusive R also occurs between syllables of a single word, as long as there's an appropriate vowel-vowel sequence. Placing one between saw and it would not normally be viewed as altering the pronunciation of either word (Which one do you think is altered? I guess by nonrhotic standards it would have to be it), but as the application of a general rule.
Placing /n/ between a and elephant is not the application of a general rule, it's the application of a rule specific to a.
> Overall, the atomicity of a linguistic construct is highly debatable, even in a particular context.
You're saying that people argue over which items count as words, not that they argue over what it means to count as a word.
Re: Is English a “creole Language”?
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
With 40%+ Germanic vocabulary (per Braudel), is French rather a Germanic creole?
Is that the vocabulary of Germanic origin and imported from Germanic, or is it just the part of PIE that has not diverged between Latin and Germanic languages?
Re: Is English a “creole Language”?
#47[flagged]
Actually it's quite the outlier, due to its radically simplified verb system, loss of case and gender and large amounts of French vocabulary.
There's no "political program of obfuscation", there's simply a debate on whether these features make English a creole.
Re: Is English a “creole Language”?
#48Re: Is English a “creole Language”?
#49Is English just badly pronounced French [video]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40495393
But my favorite example is when going into English from Norse, "fjord" has a quite narrow meaning in English, but must have been much broader in Norse when you look at Limfjorden in flat Denmark (more of a sound than a fjord) and Tunhovdfjorden (even Norwegians would think of this as a lake these days)
Re: Is English a “creole Language”?
#50Is English just badly pronounced French [video]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40495393
"that strategy of borrowing a word but giving it a slightly narrower meaning" – I think this happens with most borrowing, into any language. E.g. "opsjon" in Norwegian is from "option" but only means stock/legal options, never used in the common meaning of "choices". (And the video's own example with "les peoples".) But my favorite example is when going into English from Norse, "fjord" has a quite narrow meaning in E…