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Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

sohl-dickstein.github.io

241–250 of 377 posts

Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

#241
It's an effect that exists, but the examples aren't accurate.

An overemphasis on grades isn't from wanting to educate the population; obesity isn't from prioritizing nutrient-rich food; and increased inequality isn't from wanting to distribute resources based on the needs of society.

Living a well-lived life through culture, cooking, or exercise doesn't make you more susceptible to sensationalism, addiction, or gambling. It's a lack of stimulus that makes you reach for those things.

You can argue that academia enables rankings, industrial food production enables producing empty calories, and economic development enables greater inequality. But that isn't causation.

It also isn't a side effect when significant resources specifically go into promoting education as a private matter best used to educate the elite, that businesses aren't responsible for the externalities they cause, and that resources should be privately controlled.

In many ways, it is far easier to have more public education, heavily tax substances like sugar, and redistribute wealth than it is to do anything else. That just isn't the goal. It used to be hard to get a good education, good food, and a good standard of living. And it still is. For the same reasons.

Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

#242
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is coincides with my headcannon cause of the business cycle. 1. Firms compete 2. Firms either increase their efficiency or die 3. Efficient firms are more susceptible to shocks 4. Firm shutdown and closures are themselves shocks 5. Eventually the system reaches a critical point where the aggregate susceptibility is higher than the aggregate of shocks that will be generated by shutdowns and closures 6. Any extern…

Good analysis, but one also needs to look at the definition of `efficiency`, what is your definition of efficiency in this context.

The ability to do more with fewer resources. Profit is a great starting point when answering, "What is efficiency to a firm?"

Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

#243
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sort of. Compare doing laundry at the laundromat to doing laundry in your basement.

They meant things like bars, restaurants, sports stadiums, concerts, plays. Things that require sufficient density to make economic sense.

LA has multiple of all of those and nearly entirely suburbs

Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

#244
post #230
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unlike particles, humans will actively seek to exploit any control system you've set up. But that’s only possible because the control system doesn’t exactly (and only) control what we want it to control. The control system is only an imperfect proxy for what we really want, in a very similar way as the measure in Goodhart’s law. Another variation of that is the law of unintended consequences [0]. There is probably…

Disagree. Even if it was striving to regulate exactly the right thing in the first place, most of these issues occur for systems where no single actor could be expected to exert complete control and could well be vulnerable anyway. Start working with a nice, clean, fully relevant system, end up modelling that plus the whole range of adversarial perturbations from agents of pretty high complexity.

I don’t exactly see how this is different from what I was describing.

Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

#245
post #88
post #5

I don’t think the author understands what efficiency measures. All of the examples involve a bad proxy metric, or the flawed assumption that spending less improves the ratio of price to performance.

Yeah, every single example listed looks like gaming of bad metrics. Framing it as overfitting is unproductive, IMHO, and discounts the essentially adversarial context. I also discounts the stupidity of equating "efficiency" with a high score on a simple metric. Reality has a Surprising Amount of Detail, and all that.

gaming of metrics. Not of bad metrics. The point is all metrics will become bad because they will be gamed for.

Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the idea of ReZero, basically using a trainable parameter, alpha, in residual layers like this: Deep Network | xi+1 = F(xi) Residual Network | xi+1 = xi + F(xi) Deep Network + Norm | xi+1 = Norm(F(xi)) Residual Network + Pre-Norm | xi+1 = xi + F(Norm(xi)) Residual Network + Post-Norm | xi+1 = Norm(xi + F(xi)) ReZero | xi+1 = xi + αi F(xi) However, I haven't actually seen this used in practice. The papers we ha…

Isn't this already part of F?

Your sound system has a volume dial to turn up and down the gain of the track even though you could get the same effect by re-recording the track at a higher volume; isn’t that curious?

Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the idea of ReZero, basically using a trainable parameter, alpha, in residual layers like this: Deep Network | xi+1 = F(xi) Residual Network | xi+1 = xi + F(xi) Deep Network + Norm | xi+1 = Norm(F(xi)) Residual Network + Pre-Norm | xi+1 = xi + F(Norm(xi)) Residual Network + Post-Norm | xi+1 = Norm(xi + F(xi)) ReZero | xi+1 = xi + αi F(xi) However, I haven't actually seen this used in practice. The papers we ha…

Isn't this already part of F?

I should add that alpha is initialized to 0.

Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

#248
While this intuitively seems likes good idea, his real life examples are severely lacking. This gets interesting when we see where the rubber hits the road, the causes and effects of what is being optimized for vs what is happening and we look deeply into improving that scenario.

Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

#250
post #53

And that's leaving out Jevon's paradox, where increasing efficiency in the use of some scarce resource sometimes/often increases its consumption, by making the unit price of the dependent thing affordable and increasing its demand. For example, gasoline has limited demand if it requires ten liters to go one km, but very high demand at 1 L/10km, even at the same price per liter.

When people know the answer is always “no” they save their energy to plea for stuff they really can’t do without. You start saying yes and they’ll ask for more. The trick is as always to find out the XY problem. What they really need may be way easier for you to implement than what they actually asked for.

Yeah, but it is also second-order effects where the efficient use of a resource opens it up for more uses as well as for more exploitation. Perhaps this is most visible with farmland. Efficient use of water (center-pivot sprinkler) causes much more land to be arable, causing more use of that same water as well, depleting aquifers.
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