Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)
181–190 of 377 posts
Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)
#182I have been thinking of goodhart's law a lot, but realized I had been leaning toward focusing on human reaction to the metric as the cause of it; but this reminded me it's actually fundamentally about the fact that any metric itself is inherently not an exact representation of the quality you wish to represent.
And that this may, as OP argues, make goodhart's law fundamental to pretty much any metric used as a target. Independently of how well-intentioned any actors. It's not a result of like human laziness or greed or competing interests, it's an epistemic (?) result of the neccesary imperfection of metric validity.
This makes some of OP's more contentious "Inject noise into the system" and "early stopping" ideas more interesting even for social targets.
"The more our social systems break due to the strong version of Goodhart's law, the less we will be able to take the concerted rational action required to fix them."
Well, that's terrifying.
Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)
#183https://herbertlui.net/slack-tom-demarco-summary/
“People under time pressure don’t think faster!”
Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)
#184As just one example to make this point more concrete (LOL), the article mentions uncritically that "more complex ecosystems are more stable", but over half a century ago in 1973 Robert May wrote a book called "Stability and Complexity in Model Ecosystems" [2] explaining (very accessibly!) how this is untrue for the easiest ideas of "complex" and "stable". In more human terms, some ideas of "complex" & "stable" can lead you astray, as has been appearing in the relatively nice HN commentary on this article here.
Perhaps less shallowly, things go off the rails fast once you have both multiple metrics (meaning no "objective Objective") and competing & intelligent agents (meaning the system itself has a kind of intrinsic complexity, often swept under the rug by a simplistic thinking that "people are all the same"). I think this whole topic folds itself into "Humanity Complete" (after NP-complete.. a kind of infectious cluster of Wicked Problems [3]) like trust/delegation do [4].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organized_criticality
[2] https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691088617/st...
Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)
#185Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel that a 100% efficient system is not resilient. Even minor disruptions in subsystems lead to major breakdowns. There’s no room to absorb shocks. We saw a drastic version of this during COVID-19 induced supply chain collapse. Car manufacturers had built near 100% just in time manufacturing that they couldn’t absorb chip shortages and it took them years to get back up. It also leaves no room for experimentation.…
This is coincides with my headcannon cause of the business cycle. 1. Firms compete 2. Firms either increase their efficiency or die 3. Efficient firms are more susceptible to shocks 4. Firm shutdown and closures are themselves shocks 5. Eventually the system reaches a critical point where the aggregate susceptibility is higher than the aggregate of shocks that will be generated by shutdowns and closures 6. Any extern…
1. Firms compete
2. Some firms get ahead
3. Accrued advantages to being ahead amplify
4. A small number of firms dominate
5. New competition is bought or crushed
6. Dominate firms become less efficient in competition-free environment
Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)
#186Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)
#187Another example of this approximate law is in exercise physiology. To a normal person, there are a lot of good proxy indicators of fitness. You could train sprinting. You could hop up and down. Squat. Clean and jerk.. etc. Running faster,hopping higher, squatting heavier... all indicators of increasing fitness... and success of your fitness training. Two points: 1 - The more general your training methodology, the mor…
Not sure these are the best example. I don't know of anyone who can C&J more than their body weight for multiple repetitions who isn't also an absolute terminator at most other meaningful aspects of human fitness.
Human body is one machine. Hormonal responses are global. Endurance/strength is a spectrum but the whole body goes along for the ride.
Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)
#188The argument rides on the well-known Goodhart's law ( when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure ). However, it only puts it down to measurement problems, as in, we can't measure the things we really care about, so we optimize some proxies. That, in my view, is a far too reductionist view of the problem. The problem isn't just about measurement, it's about human behavior. Unlike particles, humans…
But that’s only possible because the control system doesn’t exactly (and only) control what we want it to control. The control system is only an imperfect proxy for what we really want, in a very similar way as the measure in Goodhart’s law.
Another variation of that is the law of unintended consequences [0]. There is probably a generalized computational or complex-systems version of it that we haven’t discovered yet.
[0] https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~haroldfs/540/handouts/french/unin...
Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)
#189Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interesting timing for me! Just a couple of days ago I discovered the work of biologist Olivier Hamant who has been raising exactly this issue. His main thesis is that very high performance (which he defines as efficacy towards a known goal plus efficiency) and very high robustness (the ability to withstand large fluctuations in the system) are physically incompatible. Examples abound in nature. Contrary to common pe…
We've seen this during the COVID pandemic supply chain disruptions as well, where just in time supply chain management doesn't work as expected when operating in an abnormal environment.
Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)
#190I have a pet theory that the state-planned economies failed not because they were inefficient (as neoclassical economics claims), but rather because they attempted to be too efficient. They tried to exactly calculate which producer needs what inputs, what they should produce and when, and a little deviation from the plan caused big cascading failures. Free market is actually less efficient than direct control, but it…
- https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2010/aug/08/red-plenty-fra...
- https://chris-said.io/2016/05/11/optimizing-things-in-the-us...