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Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

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Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

#133
It would be nice, if us on HN, can crowdsource, some good KPIs/Proxies for the goals mentioned in the article.

These ones:

Goal: Educate children well Proxy: Measure student and school performance on standardized tests Strong version of Goodhart's law leads to: Schools narrowly focus on teaching students to answer questions like those on the test, at the expense of the underlying skills the test is intended to measure

--- Goal: Rapid progress in science Proxy: Pay researchers a cash bonus for every publication Strong version of Goodhart's law leads to: Publication of incorrect or incremental results, collusion between reviewers and authors, research paper mills

--- Goal: A well-lived life Proxy: Maximize the reward pathway in the brain Strong version of Goodhart's law leads to: Substance addiction, gambling addiction, days lost to doomscrolling Twitter

--- Goal: Healthy population Proxy: Access to nutrient-rich food Strong version of Goodhart's law leads to: Obesity epidemic

--- Goal: Leaders that act in the best interests of the population Proxy: Leaders that have the most support in the population Strong version of Goodhart's law leads to: Leaders whose expertise and passions center narrowly around manipulating public opinion at the expense of social outcomes

--- Goal: An informed, thoughtful, and involved populace Proxy: The ease with which people can share and find ideas Strong version of Goodhart's law leads to: Filter bubbles, conspiracy theories, parasitic memes, escalated tribalism

--- Goal: Distribution of labor and resources based upon the needs of society Proxy: Capitalism Strong version of Goodhart's law leads to: Massive wealth disparities (with incomes ranging from hundreds of dollars per year to hundreds of dollars per second), with more than a billion people living in poverty

---

I will start:

Goal: Leaders that act in the best interests of the population

Good proxy: Mandate that local leaders can only send their kids to the schools in their precinct. They can only take their families to the hospitals in their precincts.

Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

#134
“Though this pheonomenon is often discussed, it doesn't seem to be named. Let's call it the strong version of Goodhart's law“

I wonder why the author called it that way when this seems to me clearly derived from Ross Ashby‘s law of Requisite Variet[1], predating Goodhard by 20 years. As I see it, it is not even necessary to put more meaning it Goodhard as there actually is. Requisite Variety is sufficient. Going by his resume, I strongly assume the author knows this.

Russel Ackoff, building on countless others, put into two sentences for which others needed two volumes:

“The behaviour of a system is never equal to the behaviour of its parts. - It is the product of their interactions.“

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variety_(cybernetics)

Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

#135
post #34

From a social / emotional / spiritual/ humanistic perspective, this is what I see in the "productivity" and "wellness" spaces. "Ahh, if only I hyperoptimize all aspects of my existence, then I will achieve inner peace. I just need to be more efficient with my time and goals. Just one more meditation. One more gratitude exercise. If only I could be consistent with my habits, then I would be happy." I've come to see th…

Some of us are trying to optimize for things other than happiness. An occasional bit of happiness can be a nice side effect of certain types of optimization but happiness isn't a reasonable goal to focus on by itself.

Happiness is a valid goal. If one perceives it’s not reasonable to expect it, then you may arrive at this conclusion. But imo that’s because we short-circuit happiness to sources of pleasure that we see aren’t that reliable.

Hell, even this settling for happiness as a side-product is a result of the judgement that this is the best we can do regarding the goal of happiness.

Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

#136

Upon reading the title at first glance, I thought this was going to be how "effecient" computers nowadays. Such as MacBooks and such, who started this efficient computers thing in the recent times. And they are, but as a result computers are all worse off for it. I mean soldered RAMs and everything is a system on a chip.

The existence of the Framework Laptop proves that this is largely an imaginary tradeoff, or at least one badly taken by Apple.

Unfortunately once one company does something and gets away with it, or makes even more money, everyone will follow.

I was looking at Thinkpads and was somewhat shocked to see they started doing that too!

Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

#137
I would claim in a completely informal way that the optimal degree of utilization is ln(2)=0.693, around 70%.

This stems from the optimal load of self-balancing trees.

A little bit of slack is always useful to deal with the unforeseen.

And even a lot of slack is useful (though not always as it is costly) as it enables to do things that a dedicated resource cannot do.

On the other hand, no slack at all (so running at above 70%) makes a system inflexible and unresilient.

I would argue for this in any circumstance, be it military, be it public transit, be it funding, be it allocation of resources for a particular task.

Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

#138

I recognize the author Jascha as an incredibly brilliant ML researcher, formerly at Google Brain and now at Anthropic. Among his notable accomplishments, he and coauthors mathematically characterized the propagation of signals through deep neural networks via techniques from physics and statistics (mean field and free probability theory). Leading to arguably some of the most profound yet under-appreciated theoretical…

Interesting timing for me! Just a couple of days ago I discovered the work of biologist Olivier Hamant who has been raising exactly this issue. His main thesis is that very high performance (which he defines as efficacy towards a known goal plus efficiency) and very high robustness (the ability to withstand large fluctuations in the system) are physically incompatible. Examples abound in nature. Contrary to common pe…

> We must (and will be forced to) backtrack on performance in order to become robust.

This is something that Nassim Taleb and the people working on https://realworldrisk.com/ have been saying for decades already.

Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

#139

I would claim in a completely informal way that the optimal degree of utilization is ln(2)=0.693, around 70%. This stems from the optimal load of self-balancing trees. A little bit of slack is always useful to deal with the unforeseen. And even a lot of slack is useful (though not always as it is costly) as it enables to do things that a dedicated resource cannot do. On the other hand, no slack at all (so running at…

I would put it at

  1 - e^(-1) ~= 0.6321
As e^x is a commonly occurring curve and at that point its derivative goes below 1, meaning from that point on it's diminishing returns.

Re: Too much efficiency makes everything worse (2022)

#140

I recognize the author Jascha as an incredibly brilliant ML researcher, formerly at Google Brain and now at Anthropic. Among his notable accomplishments, he and coauthors mathematically characterized the propagation of signals through deep neural networks via techniques from physics and statistics (mean field and free probability theory). Leading to arguably some of the most profound yet under-appreciated theoretical…

Interesting timing for me! Just a couple of days ago I discovered the work of biologist Olivier Hamant who has been raising exactly this issue. His main thesis is that very high performance (which he defines as efficacy towards a known goal plus efficiency) and very high robustness (the ability to withstand large fluctuations in the system) are physically incompatible. Examples abound in nature. Contrary to common pe…

That reminds me of a study on "lazy" ants as a reserve/replacement labor force. [0]

Maximizing efficiency in the short-term is not the same as maximizing survival in the long term.

[0] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170908205356.h...

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