Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What if we hired writers like we hire developers

hitesh.in

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 97 posts

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#81

Post by excuse-me »

jaems33 wrote: post #14
kkowalczyk wrote: post #12

This ignores different realities in how programmers and writers work. If you're hiring a writer, you cam ask to see his previous work. Unless he worked for CIA, he can point to books he's written, articles he published etc. You can then read them and that's all you need to make a decision if he's competent enough (you might still interview for cultural fit). If you're hiring a senior engineer that claims he spent las…

Where is the fine line between coding tests and spec work? I'm not a programmer, but I've seen startups co-founded by engineers try hiring designers in a similar fashion to I assume programmers as they test designers with a variety of unpaid projects. I've found it to be pretty annoying given that I've already shown a portfolio of work and it's not unlike spec work. I get that some people may have fabricated their hi…

I was once asked a fairly involved technical question in an hour long interview - I later interviewed for a different group in the same organization and they mentioned the problem the other group had been having.

I talked about the solution I had proposed and was told - "oh yes, some consultant they had in suggested that and we tried it last week".

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#83

Post by antiterra »

kkowalczyk wrote: post #12

This ignores different realities in how programmers and writers work. If you're hiring a writer, you cam ask to see his previous work. Unless he worked for CIA, he can point to books he's written, articles he published etc. You can then read them and that's all you need to make a decision if he's competent enough (you might still interview for cultural fit). If you're hiring a senior engineer that claims he spent las…

More importantly, I think it ignores the reality in how the output is consumed. Writing is generally meant to be read; that is its use. When evaluating a text, the qualities it has when read by a human are the primary criteria.

When we evaluate code by reading it, our largest concern is how it will be interpreted by a machine. Clarity matters in comments, but can be justifiably sacrificed in code for an elegant or efficient solution.

It might be more appropriate to compare the requirements of composing legal documents to that of coding. Testing for understanding of methods, patterns and common concepts is far more applicable in that case. Asking if a candidate knows the parameters for a work to be classified as work-for-hire or what kinds of indemnifications and disclaimers should be in a contract are arguable useful indicators of suitability.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#84

Post by jiggy2011 »

bambax wrote: post #51

A developer is a writer; one writes English and the other writes code, but they both write to a human audience (the only "code" a machine needs to see is 0s and 1s; programming languages are for humans). So there really shouldn't be a big difference in hiring a writer vs. a developer; and a good test would probably be to have developers write essays in English about a technical question: can they make themselves unde…

That's kind of an interesting point. People assume that skill in programming is generally correlated with Math skill and there is certainly some truth to that.

However I generally find that people who write sloppy English also write sloppy code.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#85

Post by djt »

rdl wrote: post #43
tokenadult wrote: post #26

It looks like it's time to recycle some electrons and post the FAQ that Hacker News readers have helped me put together with their previous thoughtful comments about hiring procedures. There are many discussions here on HN about company hiring procedures. From participants in earlier discussions I have learned about many useful references on the subject, which I have gathered here in a FAQ file. The review article by…

Are there any actually useful integrity tests?

we do a reference check and although this wouldnt normally tell us much we can also structure it this way:

1. get their last 3 (or so) jobs on their resume. 2. During phone interview, ask the person how their last three bosses would rate their performance out of 10. 3. Ask them what their ex-bosses will tell you when you call them. 4. Call the references and ask their bosses what they were like as staff, why they left etc. 5. Ask them if there was one thing they could improve on, what would it be.

This works pretty well as an integrity test and is related to actual behaviors rather than written tests.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#86

Post by nessus42 »

mgkimsal wrote: post #69
nessus42 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're hiring a senior engineer that claims he spent last 5 years coding Big Table at Google, you have to take his word for it. I find this assertion to be virtually nonsensical. I've never met a programmer who hasn't written some code that they could show you, if for no other reason than programmers who are passionate about what they do, usually write at least little programs just for fun. And if I were interview…

"I find this assertion to be virtually nonsensical. I've never met a programmer who hasn't written some code that they could show you"... I've met plenty. Interviewed 6 candidates a few years ago - only one even brought anything beyond his resume. He brought a full physical portfolio of work he'd done. Most of it was web screenshots and such - not much 'code' to speak of, but he'd made the effort. No one else did. I'…

If you didn't ask candidates to bring code samples, it should come as no surprise that most don't, even though they might be able.

Where I work, we don't ask candidates to bring in a random code sample because instead we have them submit a coding exercise that they can do at home at their leisure. Our entire team then code reviews the code. Given the quality of most of the code submissions, it may be true that most programmers never program for fun, but if so, it shows this fact shows in the quality of their work.

All of the people who've given us nice submissions have also been very enthusiastic about what they do. I know this because we ask candidates if they read any programming journals or books just for their own edification, and the good ones always do. They always show some motivation beyond just completing assigned tasks.

We're a Scala shop, though, so we need people who aren't just programming because it's their job and for no other reason. Such people would have no motivation to become skilled in a complex programming language that is not yet mainstream.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#87

Post by nessus42 »

Lendal wrote: post #63
nessus42 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're hiring a senior engineer that claims he spent last 5 years coding Big Table at Google, you have to take his word for it. I find this assertion to be virtually nonsensical. I've never met a programmer who hasn't written some code that they could show you, if for no other reason than programmers who are passionate about what they do, usually write at least little programs just for fun. And if I were interview…

I write code every day, but I don't save it and its been 20 years since I wrote any code for 'pleasure'. For pleasure I have sex, go to a symphony or swim in the ocean. Coding is something I do because I'm good at it and people will pay me for it. Further, I don't save code. I sell it. If I saved it then I would have to organize it, keep track of it and back it up. Why do that? I'm a programmer. Code I have written f…

> If I saved it then I would have to organize it, keep track of it and back it up.

I really find this hard to swallow. It fails for me on so many counts.

Firstly, code is small compared to just about anything else you might keep on your computer. All you have to do to preserve it is drop it in a directory you keep for that purpose. The code doesn't have to be organized in order to preserve it. If you back up your computer, then your code is backed up. You back up your computer don't you?

Sure, it may be hard to find some useful piece of code later if you don't organize it, but preserving it, at least, is easy.

More importantly, you never write reusable code? You never write a library that can be applied to future problems? If not, then, you may not be the type of programmer that I'd want to work with anyway. I firmly believe that the way to increased productivity for any team is to factor out useful components and make them into more general purpose libraries. To do otherwise, is to end up with a codebase that is bloated with boilerplate.

Thirdly, if coding for you is as natural as breathing, surely you can whip up a couple of pages of code as a "code portfolio" in no time. You could have done that instead of typing in the above for your pleasure.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#88

Post by mgkimsal »

nessus42 wrote: post #86
mgkimsal wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I find this assertion to be virtually nonsensical. I've never met a programmer who hasn't written some code that they could show you"... I've met plenty. Interviewed 6 candidates a few years ago - only one even brought anything beyond his resume. He brought a full physical portfolio of work he'd done. Most of it was web screenshots and such - not much 'code' to speak of, but he'd made the effort. No one else did. I'…

If you didn't ask candidates to bring code samples, it should come as no surprise that most don't, even though they might be able. Where I work, we don't ask candidates to bring in a random code sample because instead we have them submit a coding exercise that they can do at home at their leisure. Our entire team then code reviews the code. Given the quality of most of the code submissions, it may be true that most p…

I was doing PHP in 1996. If you were doing PHP in 1996, it was generally because you wanted to do it, learn it, etc (arguably web stuff in general then a bit too). There weren't many "PHP jobs" as such back then, so when you found other PHP developers, you knew they were enthusiasts of some sort.

That's where Scala's been, and almost any 'newish' language. If you find people adopting them, they're probably enthusiastic about it, and enjoy living on the cutting edge. :)

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#89

Post by rdl »

excuse-me wrote: post #80
atestu wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unfamiliar with these questions… Inverse the scoring? So what, going to parties is good or bad? How is this relevant to determine if you're good at your job?

The other classic bank question is "do you prefer cycling on an exercise bike or on the road" I think the idea is that an excerisice bike means you are fitness and performance orientated and able to work toward a arbitrary goal without any obvious reward or it means you are willing to do pointless grunt work instead of something pleasant and interesting - either way you are supposed to say exercise bike

"Exercise bike because I'm somewhat terrified of being around cars, random people, and far away from home/office without a nice metal cage around me and a trunk full of storage capacity." Perhaps one of many reasons I don't work at a bank.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#90

Post by jaylevitt »

antiterra wrote: post #83
kkowalczyk wrote: post #12

This ignores different realities in how programmers and writers work. If you're hiring a writer, you cam ask to see his previous work. Unless he worked for CIA, he can point to books he's written, articles he published etc. You can then read them and that's all you need to make a decision if he's competent enough (you might still interview for cultural fit). If you're hiring a senior engineer that claims he spent las…

More importantly, I think it ignores the reality in how the output is consumed. Writing is generally meant to be read; that is its use. When evaluating a text, the qualities it has when read by a human are the primary criteria. When we evaluate code by reading it, our largest concern is how it will be interpreted by a machine. Clarity matters in comments, but can be justifiably sacrificed in code for an elegant or ef…

If you're writing code in any environment but an early-stage startup, the qualities it has when read by a human are ALSO the primary criteria.
Post reply on HN