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Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

motor1.com

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Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#361

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

mrangle wrote: post #237
jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your understanding is very out of date. All electric sports cars have been a thing for a while, even at the supercar level. Car enthusiasts have in fact embraced electrics. Go on youtube and look up drag race comparison races and a Model S Plaid is very frequently the one people want to beat. Double clutched automatics have taken over h pattern manuals.

My understanding isn't out of date whatsoever. Your understanding is wishcasting. You citing the appearance of the Model S Plaid at "youtube drag races" reflects more of your lack of understanding than my own. The double clutch vs manual debate isn't relevant to the one under discussion. Its an interface argument that is more niched than ICE vs electric, is specialized to each particular car, and each particular use…

> You citing the appearance of the Model S Plaid at "youtube drag races" reflects more of your lack of understanding than my own.

No it's just a simple example of how attitudes are changing. You'd expect the drag/Hoonigan crowd to be ICE diehards, but instead they've embraced electrics as interesting and worthy competition.

You asserted that the sportscar world would "detest" any change away from ICE, when clearly that's not what we're seeing.

Porsche and others are embracing all electric platforms. Even hypercar manufacturers like Koenigsegg are embracing hybrids as a transitional technology.

Then look at the cutting edge stuff like the Perry Sterling and it's obvious electric race cars have a bright future indeed. Look at the electric cars and bikes running exhibition at Pikes or Isle of Man. People in the racing world are excited about these developments.

> The double clutch vs manual debate isn't relevant to the one under discussion.

You're the one that mentioned manual gearboxes in your comment.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#362

Post by dahart »

_yb2s wrote: post #358
dahart wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Cayenne’s max wading depth is just shy of 20 inches, about the same as Subaru Forester. I can find some evidence that people called the Cayenne Turbo GT a hypercar, but nobody calls the base model a supercar. Know why? It doesn’t have the engine. You completely dismissed the small family commuter engine. The engine is the primary thing that makes a high performance car high performance, and base Cayenne simply do…

The fording depth thing really makes my point so I am just going to focus on that. You can't really appreciate the Cayenne design unless you are a person that uses the vehicle in a way that pushes its limits- and have firsthand experience that other vehicles will fail in those same conditions. The specs vary a bit, but a 957 for example has a steel spring fording depth of 500mm (19.68") and air suspension depth of 55…

Well alright, I believe you that the design and build is superior, and you have more experience with Cayenne than I do. My main datapoint is my buddy who shuttled kids and complained his Cayenne was breaking down a lot and in the shop too often. But if the thing is generally as high end and robust as you say compared to other cars, then the base model sounds like a good deal even at $84k. Maybe I’ll get one someday. ;) I appreciate the links and stats and details.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#363

Post by _yb2s »

dahart wrote: post #362
_yb2s wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fording depth thing really makes my point so I am just going to focus on that. You can't really appreciate the Cayenne design unless you are a person that uses the vehicle in a way that pushes its limits- and have firsthand experience that other vehicles will fail in those same conditions. The specs vary a bit, but a 957 for example has a steel spring fording depth of 500mm (19.68") and air suspension depth of 55…

Well alright, I believe you that the design and build is superior, and you have more experience with Cayenne than I do. My main datapoint is my buddy who shuttled kids and complained his Cayenne was breaking down a lot and in the shop too often. But if the thing is generally as high end and robust as you say compared to other cars, then the base model sounds like a good deal even at $84k. Maybe I’ll get one someday.…

Don't get me wrong- the Cayenne is extremely complex to do what it does, and also has supercar level maintenance costs and reliability issues, even in the base models which basically just have regular VW passenger car engines. The rest of the car is still complex and expensive "supercar parts."

They can do unique things, and you pay a huge price for being able to do them- shuttling your kids in something so over-engineered and complex is basically ridiculous- although fun if you can afford it and have other cars as backup. If most of the parts on your car are identical to a Lamborghini Urus which can drive 190mph, none of them will be cheap to fix or replace, even if you have a tiny VW Jetta VR6 engine under the hood. Even just a regular brake job is expensive because the brakes are massive Brembo monoblock brakes, even on a base model.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#364

Post by ultimafan »

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #361
mrangle wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding isn't out of date whatsoever. Your understanding is wishcasting. You citing the appearance of the Model S Plaid at "youtube drag races" reflects more of your lack of understanding than my own. The double clutch vs manual debate isn't relevant to the one under discussion. Its an interface argument that is more niched than ICE vs electric, is specialized to each particular car, and each particular use…

> You citing the appearance of the Model S Plaid at "youtube drag races" reflects more of your lack of understanding than my own. No it's just a simple example of how attitudes are changing. You'd expect the drag/Hoonigan crowd to be ICE diehards, but instead they've embraced electrics as interesting and worthy competition. You asserted that the sportscar world would "detest" any change away from ICE, when clearly th…

I don't think this is really true outside of YouTubers/influencers who may or may not be sponsored and this is coming from someone who both used to and still occasionally does go to car meetups in one of the most liberal parts of the US where there's a deluge of Tesla's and other electric cars on the streets.

For the common hobbyist/enthusiast electric vehicles are still mostly looked down on regardless of make/model. I don't know how many times I've heard some variation of "it's really a shame that company X made the spiritual successor for model Y as a hybrid/electric/automatic" and old ICE cars that cost a fraction of the price of even an electric supercar get more crowd attention at meets.

I think it's a combination of a few of things. For one, "raw" driving feel is still pretty much unmatched though this has much to do with older cars not having as many creature comforts / driving assists as newer cars do and not entirely an ICE vs electric issue outside of losing the manual gearbox and engine sound. Tuning/modding is also pretty much incomparable between the two- you will never get as much customization / feeling of a unique build on an electric car because there's simply far less you can actually tune and/or modify. And finally, cost, most hobbyists can't justify buying a performance oriented electric car at today's prices when an old ICE sports car as a wrenching project is far far cheaper and feel more fun to drive on twisty roads due to the driving feedback.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#365

Post by to11mtm »

i_am_jl wrote: post #201
magicalhippo wrote: post #196

I'm a programmer, not an engine guy. From the description in the article, they do one intake stroke, two pairs of compression-power strokes, followed by an exhaust stroke. Also, it seems the initial compression-power strokes are done with the piston moving lower, ie both lower top dead center and bottom dead center, hence would have lower compression, and the second moving higher so with higher compression. From my u…

>more fuel means less compression is tolerated before knocking Generally, no. Knocking happens from pre-detonation, that's usually caused by heat from compression causing the fuel/air mix to ignite before it's triggered by spark. To avoid this engines will run a fuel/air mix that is not stoicheometrically ideal, to make the mixture less likely to ignite early. It is safer to run a fuel rich mix than to run a fuel lea…

> EDIT: Knocking happens from pre-detonation. Knocking can also happen from predestination, like in the case of turbocharged Subarus.

Edit of the week IMO.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#366

Post by mrangle »

grvdrm wrote: post #267
mrangle wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point? Future or now, my point about vanity remains. I don't see any point in arguing over my use of the word "future" here. Again, "faster" isn't the most important metric for car enthusiasts. Which is what I described in my post. I know that's disappointing to people who would like it to be in order to claim total justification for electric motors. To say that "sports cars are fully adopting electrifica…

Under-appreciated point you make: not about speed. I own a 2014 Boxster S. 315 hp, 266 lb/ft torque, 6-speed. It is NOT the fastest car out there. In fact I own an automatic 3-series BMW that's faster in a straight line every time. But the Boxster is under 3k pounds curb weight. It is laser-precise on the road. And it sounds glorious, especially with sport exhaust. I'm often driving between 20-35 mph in second gear b…

Enthusiast bliss is a revved out manual in a flyweight car on a curvy road. Likely in low gear and at lower speed: in the range that you cited.

While I admit its severely wanting and the car will suffer for the abuse on the turns, I can get the edge of that feeling in an old Corolla simply due to the weight and connectedness. While the much faster and newer luxury cars are numb (yet have their place for commuting and highway driving).

It's why older (inherently bare bones) Lotus's are still $50k, ancient Honda S2000's are $20k, and new Miata's approach new base trim SUV prices.

It's why you love your Porsche. And it's why a new Porsche GTS4 Rs (double clutch aside) sells for $100k over sticker new or used, is $100k over the cheapest comparable McLaren in the used market, and why it's very difficult to get one new. Just for example.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#367

Post by AlecSchueler »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #115
AlecSchueler wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were horses ever actively restricted by governments around the world or did we move away from them because better solutions were available?

They were causing environmental problems, cities were clogged up with horse shit. I don't know whether that influenced the transition though.

The question was only if there was ever regulatory action taken to limit the use of horses the way we are seeing in relation to internal combustion engines.
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