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Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

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Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#201

Post by brvsft »

Topfi wrote: post #90
helloplanets wrote: post #47

A pernicious excitement to learn and play chess has spread all over the country, and numerous clubs for practicing this game have been formed in cities and villages…chess is a mere amusement of a very inferior character, which robs the mind of valuable time that might be devoted to nobler acquirements … they require out-door exercises–not this sort of mental gladiatorship. A game of chess does not add a single new fa…

Another more historic example in the same mold: >>If men learn [to read], it will implant forgetfulness in their souls. They will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks. Plato, 400-300 BC Basically, learning to read and write would lead to an overreliance and provide only a "semblance of wisdom…

I don't know that much about literacy rates and social competition in ancient Greece, but I suspect it may have been in Plato's personal interests that others remain illiterate.

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#202

Post by brvsft »

bumby wrote: post #174
llamaimperative wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this meant to be an analog to Postman’s argument? Because it isn’t. His argument doesn’t really have a moral bent to it. It’s a very practical argument that different mediums are capable of carrying different messages.

I read it as a counter to Postman’s citing Huxley that society is becoming enamored with the superficial (ie the ignoble) pursuits. I read the OP as effectively saying “who is to say what is noble vs trivial, considering it varies in societal context.” 170 years ago, people may have thought chess was superficial. I think now, maybe it would be considered a more noble pursuit. Or, maybe the OP was saying it’s a consta…

Chess is a superficial pursuit, especially today, because it became a meme due to a Netflix television show.

Not that I care. People can pursue whatever they want superficially. And I have plenty of my own superficial pursuits.

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#203

Post by bee_rider »

dave333 wrote: post #21

Doing things merely to stimulate pleasurable brain chemistry is fine unless all you do is play games or watch formulaic media that have no lasting effect or achievement.

Formulaic or novel media doesn’t make a huge difference, it’s just passive consumption either way.

Coincidentally I’ve been listening to Divers a bunch recently (which is a really great album, although I am just passively consuming just like everything else… I don’t know if it falls under formulaic for you, but it is a good formula if so). A lot of it is about death and time, and she ends one of the songs with a sort of gentle sing-songy “Look, and despair.” I always read the “Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!” in Ozymandias as a giant “fuck your hopes and achievements” from that ancient king.

Anyway, Joanna Newsom’s delivery is a lot more gentle, so maybe the fact that all of our effects and achievements will ground to dust is not so bad. Mattering would be very stressful.

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#204

Post by gessha »

bschmidt1 wrote: post #189

It's amazing that solving death and aging is not Goal #1 of every rich and poor person on the planet. Death is coming for you and you're trying to get rich? Engaging in politics? Fighting? What's that gonna do when you're falling apart in real time? We're all dying fast . Medical industry can't stop it either, they don't know how. Nobody does. Yet nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care.

Some[1] do invest, others don’t. Personally, I see myself on the poor side, rather than the rich side and what I care about is having a good life however short it is. Family, friends and adventure. I don’t believe in the afterlife in any form and I wish I could live forever with my loved ones but I’ve also accepted it’s natural to die. Maybe one day we will overcome death and we will live until the heat death of the universe. Meh.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calico_(company)

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#205

Post by bschmidt3 »

gessha wrote: post #204
bschmidt1 wrote: post #189

It's amazing that solving death and aging is not Goal #1 of every rich and poor person on the planet. Death is coming for you and you're trying to get rich? Engaging in politics? Fighting? What's that gonna do when you're falling apart in real time? We're all dying fast . Medical industry can't stop it either, they don't know how. Nobody does. Yet nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care.

Some[1] do invest, others don’t. Personally, I see myself on the poor side, rather than the rich side and what I care about is having a good life however short it is. Family, friends and adventure. I don’t believe in the afterlife in any form and I wish I could live forever with my loved ones but I’ve also accepted it’s natural to die. Maybe one day we will overcome death and we will live until the heat death of the…

Invest? No that aint it.

I'm talking about the poignant reality that you, me, and everyone on this website will be gone in a matter of decades (or less).

Half or more believe that upon death they will be instantly transported to a GOLDEN CITY (unless you're bad, then you go to FIRE CITY!) forever. "Gold good... fire bad..." yeah totally not made up guys sounds real.

For everyone else it's MasterCard - distractions.

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#206

Post by zafka »

verisimi wrote: post #196
willguest wrote: post #83

Given that the vast majority of people go to work to earn money for businesses that exist either to exploit natural resources or appreciate in value in the eyes of an economic system that prioritizes increasing capital valuations above all else, including human dignity, long-term survival and the life of other species, I would say we're already there. Talking about a dystopian future is a convenient way to assuade ou…

[flagged]

I have lived in South Florida, close to the Atlantic ocean for close to 40 years. In the time I have lived here, the insect populations have noticeably dropped. I have also queried relatives from the midwest. It used to be every summer your car would get covered with dead bugs, not so any more. As for plastics in the ocean, every time I go to the beach I see a lot of macro plastics.

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#207

Post by scarecrowbob »

bdowling wrote: post #200
_yb2s wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also… maybe he achieved his purpose? Most people have read his books, and it helped generate a widespread aversion to authoritarianism… actually preventing it from happening in the USA and Britain. Many countries nowadays do have societies and governments that look a lot like 1984.

No, most people pretended to read Animal Farm and 1984 in middle school and haven’t thought about them since. They didn’t understand them at the time, and they don’t see the similar manipulations going on in today’s society.

I agree.

_Animal Farm_ was taught to me by my capitalist and authoritarian teachers as an anti-communist screed. The problem with the farm is that the pigs end up being capitalists, though I have never seen or heard of the text being taught to children as an anti-capitalist text.

This culture does a very good job of assuming that the field of possibilities can easily and quickly be reduced to two choices and, further, that we're forced to choose between the two and, finally, that anyone who thinks there are additional possible choices is "being childish and unrealistic".

I find the US to be highly authoritarian, full of easy examples double-thought and duck speak.

I don't, however think folks are being manipulated: I think that the fundamental authoritarian move is that folks here have manipulated themselves. To me, that's close to the point of 1984. Or Mark Fisher's books, or Ursula Le Guin. I'm in the middle of Butler's _The Parable of the Sower_ and it's feeling like that self-deception is core to what is happening in that book as well:

folks reducing the world to some pretty horrible binaries and then becoming happily ensnared in the ensuing problems.

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#208

Post by cholantesh »

verisimi wrote: post #196
willguest wrote: post #83

Given that the vast majority of people go to work to earn money for businesses that exist either to exploit natural resources or appreciate in value in the eyes of an economic system that prioritizes increasing capital valuations above all else, including human dignity, long-term survival and the life of other species, I would say we're already there. Talking about a dystopian future is a convenient way to assuade ou…

[flagged]

Are you aware of widespread fraud in the data associated with insect population decline? Or are you arguing that science is just inherently fraudulent or unreliable? These sound like pretty extreme responses of the type ancaps gave for years to the claim that global surface temperatures were rising. Those looked pretty quaint even without the benefit if hindsight.

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#209

Post by takinola »

scarecrowbob wrote: post #207
bdowling wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, most people pretended to read Animal Farm and 1984 in middle school and haven’t thought about them since. They didn’t understand them at the time, and they don’t see the similar manipulations going on in today’s society.

I agree. _Animal Farm_ was taught to me by my capitalist and authoritarian teachers as an anti-communist screed. The problem with the farm is that the pigs end up being capitalists, though I have never seen or heard of the text being taught to children as an anti-capitalist text. This culture does a very good job of assuming that the field of possibilities can easily and quickly be reduced to two choices and, further…

> I find the US to be highly authoritarian, full of easy examples double-thought and duck speak.

I’m curious to know where else you have lived (I assume you live in the US). As someone that has lived under an authoritarian regime, I find this statement really hard to agree with. The US is far from perfect but it is far from authoritarian in my opinion.

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#210

Post by 363874844 »

_yb2s wrote: post #165
tehnub wrote: post #38

People make too much of what Orwell supposedly feared may happen some day. He was writing about stuff the Soviet and British governments were doing in his time, and in particular, imagined what Soviet rule over Britain may look like. Assigning this philosophy to him and criticizing him for it seems unfair.

Also… maybe he achieved his purpose? Most people have read his books, and it helped generate a widespread aversion to authoritarianism… actually preventing it from happening in the USA and Britain. Many countries nowadays do have societies and governments that look a lot like 1984.

Did it really though? Ideological censorship has been on the rise for awhile. Books might only be occasionally banned but that's because their relevance in the modern zeitgeist has waned. The privatization of the public square has nonetheless meant that moderation of communication has become widespread and politically charged.
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