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What if we hired writers like we hire developers

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Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#61

Post by xyzzyb »

kkowalczyk wrote: post #12

This ignores different realities in how programmers and writers work. If you're hiring a writer, you cam ask to see his previous work. Unless he worked for CIA, he can point to books he's written, articles he published etc. You can then read them and that's all you need to make a decision if he's competent enough (you might still interview for cultural fit). If you're hiring a senior engineer that claims he spent las…

A senior engineer that has spent 5 years coding Big Table at Google would certainly (if genuinely interested in being hired) be able to take a day and throw up some code on github.

Not Big Table code of course, just some interesting code examples tailored to the position being negotiated.

Worried about people passing off copy/pasted code on github? That's what the interview is for. It's great to be able to discuss code that someone has written after you've taken some time to review it. They should be able to have a discussion about the code, their design choices, what they would do differently given a twist in the requirements, etc. If they can't do that: then even if they genuinely wrote the code they don't understand it enough.

I feel I should stress that the code doesn't have to be the next big open source project forked/watched by thousands.

Not comfortable putting code up on github because people might see it? I get that, it is scary to put your code out in public. In that case, a simple Dropbox (or whatever) shared folder would suffice.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#62

Post by namdnay »

kafkaesque wrote: post #21

I'm a professional writer; i.e., I get paid to write. I didn't study journalism but I was in an interdisciplinary programme that consisted of literature, history, and language (somewhat of a modern day philology degree) in Canada. I've just recently started to learn how to program. I think if this hiring process works for you, great! But as someone who recently started learning to program, I must say writers are vast…

Maybe a good way to hire a writer would be to see if they can spot obvious satire...

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#63

Post by Lendal »

nessus42 wrote: post #22
kkowalczyk wrote: post #12

This ignores different realities in how programmers and writers work. If you're hiring a writer, you cam ask to see his previous work. Unless he worked for CIA, he can point to books he's written, articles he published etc. You can then read them and that's all you need to make a decision if he's competent enough (you might still interview for cultural fit). If you're hiring a senior engineer that claims he spent las…

If you're hiring a senior engineer that claims he spent last 5 years coding Big Table at Google, you have to take his word for it. I find this assertion to be virtually nonsensical. I've never met a programmer who hasn't written some code that they could show you, if for no other reason than programmers who are passionate about what they do, usually write at least little programs just for fun. And if I were interview…

I write code every day, but I don't save it and its been 20 years since I wrote any code for 'pleasure'. For pleasure I have sex, go to a symphony or swim in the ocean. Coding is something I do because I'm good at it and people will pay me for it.

Further, I don't save code. I sell it. If I saved it then I would have to organize it, keep track of it and back it up. Why do that? I'm a programmer. Code I have written for fun or for some small experimental reason has no value to me because I can do it again and again at any time, like breathing. Sure, non-programmers value my code and they save it for posterity but I don't. It has no value to me once I've been paid for it.

Why would I go to all the trouble to keep a complete record of something I could do again at any time? Am I supposed to save what I'm typing right now to prove I can communicate? Do I save lawn clippings to prove I can operate a lawn mower? Do I save my waste to prove I can defecate?

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#64

Post by mkr-hn »

namdnay wrote: post #62
kafkaesque wrote: post #21

I'm a professional writer; i.e., I get paid to write. I didn't study journalism but I was in an interdisciplinary programme that consisted of literature, history, and language (somewhat of a modern day philology degree) in Canada. I've just recently started to learn how to program. I think if this hiring process works for you, great! But as someone who recently started learning to program, I must say writers are vast…

Maybe a good way to hire a writer would be to see if they can spot obvious satire...

Nope. Good writers are human too. They miss things.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#65

Post by einhverfr »

mkr-hn wrote: post #64
namdnay wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe a good way to hire a writer would be to see if they can spot obvious satire...

Nope. Good writers are human too. They miss things.

Evidently the satire was too post-structuralist for him ;-).

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#66

Post by simonbrown »

mkr-hn wrote: post #7
Dylan16807 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? I thought the Oxford Comma question was the only useful one there. You might have to define the term but it's good at showing basic knowledge of grammar conventions. Anyway this article has a point that this process isn't effective for finding good writers, but I'll be damned if asking people to write one or two sentences doesn't filter out the illiterate people that wander in your door (think FizzBuzz).

A writing sample is a great filter. Any good writer will jump at the chance to write out a quick (and good) piece of text if it means they might get paid.

Why would a good writer be any more likely to do this than a bad writer? Surely it would depend on market conditions?

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#68

Post by mkr-hn »

einhverfr wrote: post #65
mkr-hn wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Good writers are human too. They miss things.

Evidently the satire was too post-structuralist for him ;-).

I should pretend that I spotted the satire and was just acting as though it were serious for the purposes of discussion.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#69

Post by mgkimsal »

nessus42 wrote: post #22
kkowalczyk wrote: post #12

This ignores different realities in how programmers and writers work. If you're hiring a writer, you cam ask to see his previous work. Unless he worked for CIA, he can point to books he's written, articles he published etc. You can then read them and that's all you need to make a decision if he's competent enough (you might still interview for cultural fit). If you're hiring a senior engineer that claims he spent las…

If you're hiring a senior engineer that claims he spent last 5 years coding Big Table at Google, you have to take his word for it. I find this assertion to be virtually nonsensical. I've never met a programmer who hasn't written some code that they could show you, if for no other reason than programmers who are passionate about what they do, usually write at least little programs just for fun. And if I were interview…

"I find this assertion to be virtually nonsensical. I've never met a programmer who hasn't written some code that they could show you"...

I've met plenty. Interviewed 6 candidates a few years ago - only one even brought anything beyond his resume. He brought a full physical portfolio of work he'd done. Most of it was web screenshots and such - not much 'code' to speak of, but he'd made the effort. No one else did.

I've been in plenty of places where people say "I can't show my work, cause it's for my previous employer". And they don't code when they go home. Or on weekends.

I brought code samples to an interview once, and the interviewer wouldn't look at it because "it wouldn't be fair to other people who don't bring code samples".

No doubt many people can, but you may be living in a bit of a self-selection bubble where everyone you know and mix with has loads of spare code to demonstrate. Many people don't. Now... if you want to use that as a signal for that person's interest level or ability, feel free to. You may be missing out on some otherwise competent or talented folks. But we all have to use signals to filter out candidates, and that may be a valid signal for you to use.

Re: What if we hired writers like we hire developers

#70

Post by vacri »

zbyszek wrote: post #48
chii wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Good grammar doesn't indicate a good writer, but bad grammar does indicate a bad one" that is not true at all - not knowing grammar well doesn't mean the writer has nothing good or creative, or worthwhile to say (or write about). Grammar is just a technicality to be overcome. Creative writing (as opposed to technical writing), is something that is not measured by the knowledge of the language, but by the knowledge o…

Having something good, creative or worthwhile to say and saying it well are two different things. I understand the phrse "good writer" to mean the latter. Too often have I come across excellent insights buried like diamonds in a dungheap in ugly, tortuous prose. This runs the great risk of these insights being lost or misinterpreted. The converse is possible too, of course; utter nonsense put beautifully.

To support that, ghostwriters and copywriters are two examples of writers that take the gist of another person's thoughts and express them well in writing. They are creative writers, but they don't necessarily have to have anything to say to do their job.
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