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Microsoft's new Outlook client moves your email to the cloud (2023)

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Re: Microsoft's new Outlook client moves your email to the cloud (2023)

#61
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think yes, and it really boils down to role separation. For everything. An example being cable companies. They should have no capability to own TV stations, media creators, news companies, the list goes on. Backbone is backbone, be it an internet connection, or a TV/video feed. Back to Microsoft you can make an OS, or you can make apps, but not both. An OS being a 'backbone'. Applies to Google. "Search" vs "Ads". B…

How would you suggest splitting up a heavily vertically integrated company, like eg Apple? Does Google search become a paid subscription product in your vision of separation of search vs ads?

Companies have been split up before, and such acts are nuanced and often company specific. One logical thought is that existing companies would be handled differently than newer companies venturing where they should not.

I have no detail on what precisely need be done, typically that's where experts chime in. And no, that does not invalidate my opinion.

If for example, I get food poisoning regularly from the food I buy at a supermarket, then something must be done. The problem must be fixed. The food must be rendered safe. Which means "food producers must provide safe food" is a sensible response, and then food experts enact.

So back to Apple and Google? They're broken, as all synergistic orgs are. And yes this needs to be dealt with.

But you're missing something more important. I did not specify only them, but just general division for all corporate entities. This is much larger than Google or Apple or cable companies.

Playing devils advocate, the real problem is that such solutions enacted solely on the US stage only won't work. Instead it will simply shift power to externals. You'd need to get most countries on the planet to comply, else a competitive edge would be lost in the US.

Re: Microsoft's new Outlook client moves your email to the cloud (2023)

#62

The worst thing about this, to me, is that Windows Mail client, the one they're discontinuing, is a fantastic piece of software. It's simple, lean, capable, and elegantly designed. It's perfect for a novice computer user to check their email on. The new cloud thing is worse in every way. It confusingly copies your email over from your email provider's servers onto Microsoft's servers, and then shows an ad that looks…

It runs in the browser to allow for more options regarding interoperability. When Outlook is a web app and Teams is a web app you can throw components from one into the other anywhere on the screen. It also saves a lot of money building apps this way. This is the case for all apps built by Microsoft and the trend is not going to change. In Microsoft, all product managers care about is shipping more features, because…

Ah... as always foundation work for something that will never happen.

Re: Microsoft's new Outlook client moves your email to the cloud (2023)

#63
post #58

Article mentions it's "a wrapper around Microsoft's cloud services" but I wonder if is it actually a native application or some electron/chromium embedded framework app?

New outlook uses the Edge Webview thing, very similar to electron

Re: Microsoft's new Outlook client moves your email to the cloud (2023)

#64
Outlook (new) (Windows desktop client) is one of the worst product from MS I've used in recent years. The lack of polishing is staggering.

Let's be fair first, it works most of time (I know it's a low bar). And I actually prefer its aesthetics than the Outlook (classic) and Mail app.

Now, back to its bugs/issues:

1. Open an email in a search folder will not mark it as read. This is the biggest gripe I have. Since Outlook (new) does not provide any native way to add a label of "unread" on the sidebar, I created a search folder with "select a type = Unread mail" and added it to my favorite. However, it's almost unusable due to the bug mentioned above.

2. You CANNOT search non-ASCII (i.e. Chinese, Japanese, etc.) category (tag). You can add them, (and if you use a, say, Chinese client, the default color categories are literally in Chinese!) but searching these categories (or just click from a tagged email) returns nothing. This fucked me so badly when I categorized 1000+ emails before realizing.

3. The state of the client at various places are often not in sync. For example you may have cleared your unread email already but the icon on taskbar still shows unread dot. Or you opened multiple windows and some say you have 0, some say you have 5. Or within the same window, the inbox sidebar label says 0 but a search folder label for certain condition (say, from certain email address) says otherwise when it's impossible. And there is no refresh button -- so if that happens you have to re-open manually or click a random label and then go back and wish it fixes itself.

I'm sure there are lots of others, but these are more than bad enough.

I'm genuinely concerned how they can ship a software at this stage, particularly issue 1 and 2 are very easily reproducible and I've reported them multiple times through feedback with only canned reply, and they're still not fixed after months.

Re: Microsoft's new Outlook client moves your email to the cloud (2023)

#65

are we just waiting for excel to exhibit this behavior shortly?

I've been using LibreOffice Calc instead of Excel for maybe 10 years, and I'm still yet to come across a feature that Excel has which Calc doesn't. The UI leaves a lot to be desired though. Anyway point is, I don't think Excel will be missed when Microsoft inevitably enshitifies it.

Re: Microsoft's new Outlook client moves your email to the cloud (2023)

#66
post #37
post #18

They've recently renamed Outlook to Outlook (classic). So you can see which way the wind is blowing on this. Outlook (new) is still missing tons of big features and the UI sucks.

I will keep using "classic" for as long as possible. This trend to turn everything into painfully slow web apps is really getting on my nerves. As an example, I use quick steps very frequently to categorize emails. In classic Outlook, I click the button and the email is moved immediately - in the new Outlook it has a ~1 second delay until the email is moved and I can move the next one. Takes so long to get through my…

[dead]

Re: Microsoft's new Outlook client moves your email to the cloud (2023)

#67

Outlook (new) (Windows desktop client) is one of the worst product from MS I've used in recent years. The lack of polishing is staggering. Let's be fair first, it works most of time (I know it's a low bar). And I actually prefer its aesthetics than the Outlook (classic) and Mail app. Now, back to its bugs/issues: 1. Open an email in a search folder will not mark it as read. This is the biggest gripe I have. Since Out…

It's the same with New teams. One of the most upvoted issues in their uservoice/techcomminity/feedback hub/whatever is the ability to set multiple spell check languages. It's only ever the language you have your Teams UI in. Even worse, the date format uses by planner, calendar etc is from that language too. Even if Windows has detailed locale settings, and the MS365 setting also let you set a date format, Teams just ignores it. By the way, did I mention languages other than english are machine-translated and hilariously wrong.

Re: Microsoft's new Outlook client moves your email to the cloud (2023)

#68

The worst thing about this, to me, is that Windows Mail client, the one they're discontinuing, is a fantastic piece of software. It's simple, lean, capable, and elegantly designed. It's perfect for a novice computer user to check their email on. The new cloud thing is worse in every way. It confusingly copies your email over from your email provider's servers onto Microsoft's servers, and then shows an ad that looks…

It running in a browser is especially ridiculous. Has Microsoft just given up on developing native Windows applications now?

Yes.

They are definitely heading that way, I've been saying I expect them to for some time, and they are slowly proving my guess right.

It used to be that their cash cows were Windows (Desktop & Server), Office, SQL Server, and to a lesser extent Exchange (even earlier in time it was just DOS, Windows (desktop), and Office). Everything else, including Visual Studio despite charging a pile for it, was to funnel and capture people into using those, or to inconvenience startups in other areas that might later try to compete in one of those arenas.

Now their cash cows are Azure, Office subscriptions, and to a lesser extent SQL Server, Exchange, and advertising. They don't care what OS you use and what apps & services you run, but they want you to run it on Azure (unless you are a huge concern in which case the money from on-prem SQL and other licences are still worth talking about) and pay them subscriptions for storage & processing.

They can't just abandon Windows, that would look bad, but they don't want their own stuff to be keeping it alive any longer than needs be. If everyone shuffled over to Linux, Android, MacOS/iOS, etc. but still used online office and apps running in Azure, that would be ideal for them – the hassle of maintaining desktop Windows with all the hardware compatibility issues and such isn't something they would get into today if they were not already there.

Giving up on controlling their own browser engine was a big sign they were moving this way: let someone else deal with all that client UI gubbings, there is no practical MS-scale money in it, and concentrate on selling the subscription services to office users and devs. I think the failure of their attempt at mobile market-share was when this ball really got rolling internally: the thought at high levels in the business being “hang on, if we can walk away from that because it isn't worth the effort to keep pushing, could that be true of other end-user OS stuff too?”

It'll take time to move everything either properly cross-platform or at least browser-based, SQL Server was a big step in that direction, but that is relatively easy as it is effectively a micro-OS sitting atop something else, the likes of Visual Studio will be harder, but it will happen, and then Desktop Windows will be allowed to slowly die. Server Windows already is in cloud: devs are being pulled away from caring about the base OS to running everything in OS-agnostic functions and light container-based services instead.

This is why they don't care that people like me won't ever be buying into Windows 11 at all, even where we did hold our noses and let Windows 10 happen.

Re: Microsoft's new Outlook client moves your email to the cloud (2023)

#70

Meanwhile, Thunderbird is rolling out MS Exchange capability by v130 (which I am hoping must be very soon)

I just this week lost access to my hotmail/outlook account from Thunderbird, although I'm on a much older version. Sounds like MS dropped POP3 support, probably for my own 'safety and security'. How long has that been an industry standard though, shame. Anyway a good trigger to drop another ad focused company, at least that is what it seems when I was forced to use the web interface today.
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