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Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

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Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#111

Post by ianburrell »

ViewTrick1002 wrote: post #21
quasse wrote: post #9

> We also see the same cultural issues that we saw with American shipbuilding more broadly. There seems to be a lack of motivation to take maritime issues seriously or treat them as important. This is the meat of the article in my mind. The US has globalized away its maritime industry in general and we now lack the institutional knowledge, infrastructure, and labor force needed to operate even semi-independently on t…

It all stems from the Jones act. [1] The American shipbuilding industry has been allowed to atrophy in an idea that protectionism would lead to good commercial the results. What little gets built in the US is way behind the global peers in terms of economics and quality. As usual the end results are that the entire shipping industry works around the Jones act, for example cruise ships from Florida docking in the Baha…

Also, the US commercial shipbuilding industry has always been small. WW2 was the exception where built lots of ships mostly in temporary yards. Since WW2, it has struggled. Naval shipbuilding has been the big part.

It is a lot of pain for reset of economy for protecting a small industry. If US wants more naval shipyards, then should incentivize building them. I get the impression that there has been much reason for yards to improve protected from competition.

Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#112

Post by jwarden »

stackskipton wrote: post #28
ViewTrick1002 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all stems from the Jones act. [1] The American shipbuilding industry has been allowed to atrophy in an idea that protectionism would lead to good commercial the results. What little gets built in the US is way behind the global peers in terms of economics and quality. As usual the end results are that the entire shipping industry works around the Jones act, for example cruise ships from Florida docking in the Baha…

Congress has been pushed not to eliminate would completely wipe out tiny remaining American Merchant Marine fleet. Most people who want to get rid of Jones Act are economists and other types who sole concern is "How much more money can we make from cheap shipping" while ignoring any national security concerns. We could talk about modify it maybe allowing purchase of specialized ships from overseas friendly countries,…

> Most people who want to get rid of Jones Act are economists and other types who sole concern is "How much more money can we make from cheap shipping" while ignoring any national security concerns.

I read "economists and other types" as people who understand basic economics. People oppose the Jones Act because it has devastated the US shipping industry, which is obviously bad for national security. It's not just about cheap shipping.

Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#113

Post by nostrademons »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #54
foota wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other industries seem to be fine competing with other countries. Would there be some greater investment in manufacturing in the US if there were no labor (or environmental) constraints? Sure, but the fact that other industries compete just fine makes me believe it's simply not an economically efficient allocation of resources for labor heavy manufacturing to be done in the US.

What industries? Steel? Protectionism. Batteries? Protectionism. Solar? Protectionism. Autos? Protectionism. Aircraft? Protectionism. Agriculture? Protectionism. Why? Because efficiency is a tradeoff where you give up security and resiliency.

Music, movies, microcode, and high-speed pizza delivery.

Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#114

Post by toomuchtodo »

decafninja wrote: post #110
toomuchtodo wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is winning because they are intentionally and directly investing in tech regardless of the financial circumstances. They don’t care about the profits, they are focused on the outcomes. They are doing what developed countries should be doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025

They’re also an authoritarian state that doesn’t have to worry about various pesky things that grind Western democracies to a halt. If the Pharoah wants a fleet of aircraft carriers, the Pharoah will have a fleet of aircraft carriers.

Winning is winning. History is written by the victors. Important to know who you’re playing against, and whether you’re playing by the same rules, and if the rules matter. It’s not great, but it is what it is. We must operate in a way based upon how the world is, not the way that we wish it was.

Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#115

Post by [deleted] »

quasse wrote: post #9

> We also see the same cultural issues that we saw with American shipbuilding more broadly. There seems to be a lack of motivation to take maritime issues seriously or treat them as important. This is the meat of the article in my mind. The US has globalized away its maritime industry in general and we now lack the institutional knowledge, infrastructure, and labor force needed to operate even semi-independently on t…

[deleted]

Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#116

Post by joshuacc »

allturtles wrote: post #66
ViewTrick1002 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all stems from the Jones act. [1] The American shipbuilding industry has been allowed to atrophy in an idea that protectionism would lead to good commercial the results. What little gets built in the US is way behind the global peers in terms of economics and quality. As usual the end results are that the entire shipping industry works around the Jones act, for example cruise ships from Florida docking in the Baha…

I don't find this explanation satisfying. If the Jones Act of 1920 is at fault, how do we explain the timeline? The U.S. was a ship-building powerhouse at least through the 50s, if not through the 70s. Why was there a multi-generation lag between the Jones Act and its effects?

This article covers a lot of the history. https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/why-cant-the-us-build-ships

Basically the US wasn’t great at shipbuilding post civil war due to high costs. WWII was an existential threat so cost was no object, and we coasted on that capacity for a long time.

Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#117

Post by aylmao »

I think the USA is overdue an ideological renewal. Free market, neoliberal capitalism isn't cutting it. The profit incentive isn't cutting it. Supply chains where it takes hundreds of contractors and subcontractors to build anything aren't cutting it.

We see this in Boeing, where management with an ideology of profit maximization and a structure dependent on a bunch of suppliers has led to a crisis. On the other side of the Pacific, BYD has vertically integrated critical parts of car manufacturing and now is moving extremely quickly and affordably.

Another example; the Federal Government invested billions on banks in 2008, billions into the auto industry in 2009, is now investing billions into Intel, but refuses to take any shares for some reason. It has this ideology of investing billions in the private sector to save industries key to national interest, but "state owning shares is spooky so we want nothing in return". It seems so backwards to me.

If the industry is that important to the country, maybe at least have a seat at the board of directors? You don't have no nationalize anything, but at least be in the same room. Other countries, from China to France, have demonstrated there's a lot of value in this state-private sector joint ownership.

I don't know what the right answer is, but the current status quo seemingly ain't it— not just in execution, but in ideology. Something fundamental is non-ideal.

Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#118

Post by decafninja »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #114
decafninja wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re also an authoritarian state that doesn’t have to worry about various pesky things that grind Western democracies to a halt. If the Pharoah wants a fleet of aircraft carriers, the Pharoah will have a fleet of aircraft carriers.

Winning is winning. History is written by the victors. Important to know who you’re playing against, and whether you’re playing by the same rules, and if the rules matter. It’s not great, but it is what it is. We must operate in a way based upon how the world is, not the way that we wish it was.

At this point, China is outdoing the West in so many ways, and rapidly catching up in the areas where it still lags. I’m not one to eagerly praise the CCP, but it’s hard to not see how China is progressing while the West lags more and more.

The West plays nice as much as possible. China is playing to win.

Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#119

Post by FredPret »

aylmao wrote: post #117

I think the USA is overdue an ideological renewal. Free market, neoliberal capitalism isn't cutting it. The profit incentive isn't cutting it. Supply chains where it takes hundreds of contractors and subcontractors to build anything aren't cutting it. We see this in Boeing, where management with an ideology of profit maximization and a structure dependent on a bunch of suppliers has led to a crisis. On the other side…

You don't like free markets and you cite semi-governmental-department Boeing and too-big-to-fail-gets-bailed-out-every-time banks and auto companies as an example?

You'll find free marketeers everywhere complain about these exact companies, for the same reasons.

Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#120

Post by ViewTrick1002 »

vkou wrote: post #101
xyzzyz wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already are not built in the US at all. This is already true today. We already build less than one oceangoing Jones Act compliant ship a year. The US shipbuilding industry can hardly get any worse than it already is today.

My point is that it wouldn't get any better. Anyone blaming the Jones Act for this completely misidentified the root cause. There are a few good reasons to repeal the Jones Act (reduce shipping and trade costs in Hawaii, Alaska, and Puerto Rico) and a lot of really bad ones (the domestic shipping industry will be completely killed, and you're inviting unbounded liability from unregulated, fly-by-night international a…

I think you have a cursory understanding and are then pulling that to the extreme without actually knowing how the industry operates.

The problem stemming from flags of convenience is well known and the Port State Control system [1] was created to manage it.

In other words: live up to our requirements or we will detain your vessel.

The US is not a signatory to any international port state control scheme but as is usual the US runs its own nearly equivalent scheme through the coast guard. [2]

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_state_control

[2]: https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Our-Organization/Assistant-Commanda...

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