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Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

construction-physics.com

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Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#21

Post by ViewTrick1002 »

quasse wrote: post #9

> We also see the same cultural issues that we saw with American shipbuilding more broadly. There seems to be a lack of motivation to take maritime issues seriously or treat them as important. This is the meat of the article in my mind. The US has globalized away its maritime industry in general and we now lack the institutional knowledge, infrastructure, and labor force needed to operate even semi-independently on t…

It all stems from the Jones act. [1]

The American shipbuilding industry has been allowed to atrophy in an idea that protectionism would lead to good commercial the results.

What little gets built in the US is way behind the global peers in terms of economics and quality.

As usual the end results are that the entire shipping industry works around the Jones act, for example cruise ships from Florida docking in the Bahamas, and for the regions that can’t do it they are tough out of luck.

Why can’t the US build offshore wind? Because there are no jones act compliant vessels and the proposed workaround is staging all the materials in Canada and adding an enormous time waste to the projects.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920

Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#22

Post by pixelesque »

rjsw wrote: post #8
darth_avocado wrote: post #2

Why can't we just have a technology transfer agreement? Purchase the ships from Finland but make them at a US shipyard? Other countries do that with US defense manufacturers all the time. Purchase items, but with the condition that it will be manufactured in that country.

That is what is being done with the next class of US Navy frigates [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constellation-class_frigate

Which itself is turning into a bit of a disaster in terms of how different they are to the original Italian design...

Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#24

Post by cyberax »

mmooss wrote: post #14

> ... allowing the Coast Guard to buy icebreakers from Finland would likely save over a billion dollars per ship, as well as years of construction time How about we let Finland build the icebreakers, and we build something we're good at, like fighter planes? Then everyone gets the best and most efficiently built icebreakers and fighter planes, and all for much less money. There is no [edit: economic] logic to economi…

> How about we let Finland build the icebreakers

We can't. Jones Act.

Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#25

Post by 9dev »

mmooss wrote: post #14

> ... allowing the Coast Guard to buy icebreakers from Finland would likely save over a billion dollars per ship, as well as years of construction time How about we let Finland build the icebreakers, and we build something we're good at, like fighter planes? Then everyone gets the best and most efficiently built icebreakers and fighter planes, and all for much less money. There is no [edit: economic] logic to economi…

> There is no logic to economic nationalism, other than as wealth transfer from taxpayers to a few wealthy people.

It doesn’t have to be that way, and phrased a little more benevolent, economic sovereignty is a good thing. It’s for that reason the EU has invested a lot of money into Galileo instead of just using GPS. Or look at the Ariane rocket program. It mandates an absurdly complex manufacturing schedule with thousands of European companies, effectively costing a lot more than just relying on SpaceX. At the same time, though, it creates a lot of jobs and distributes wealth throughout the union.

Embezzling is a problem, and politicians funneling money to their cronies too. But it can be done differently.

Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#26

Post by pitaj »

epistasis wrote: post #10

> The culprit here isn’t the Jones Act, but another protectionist shipbuilding law that requires Naval and Coast Guard ships to be built in U.S. shipyards. Now this is a surprise! As soon as I read the headline, I thought "Jones Act." When I describe the Jones Act to people, the usual response is "That can't be right," or even "I don't believe you," but these days there's usually another person around that can say "Y…

I'm sure the Jones Act still plays a part, leading our domestic shipbuilding capabilities (including military and icebreakers) to atrophy in competitiveness.

Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#27

Post by skhunted »

cyberax wrote: post #19
quasse wrote: post #9

> We also see the same cultural issues that we saw with American shipbuilding more broadly. There seems to be a lack of motivation to take maritime issues seriously or treat them as important. This is the meat of the article in my mind. The US has globalized away its maritime industry in general and we now lack the institutional knowledge, infrastructure, and labor force needed to operate even semi-independently on t…

> The US has globalized away its maritime industry It hasn't. Jones Act _protects_ the US maritime industry, so it stagnated and died. Nobody wants the US ships unless they have to use them, they're crap compared to ships from other countries. > and they still can't find builders. That's because shipyards are basically a defense industry subsidiary. So they receive a fixed amount of orders, and it's known for years i…

Unionized workers can be hired on a temporary basis. By cushy contracts this means that the amount of wealth extraction from workers is not as great as it is in other American industries.

Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#28

Post by stackskipton »

ViewTrick1002 wrote: post #21
quasse wrote: post #9

> We also see the same cultural issues that we saw with American shipbuilding more broadly. There seems to be a lack of motivation to take maritime issues seriously or treat them as important. This is the meat of the article in my mind. The US has globalized away its maritime industry in general and we now lack the institutional knowledge, infrastructure, and labor force needed to operate even semi-independently on t…

It all stems from the Jones act. [1] The American shipbuilding industry has been allowed to atrophy in an idea that protectionism would lead to good commercial the results. What little gets built in the US is way behind the global peers in terms of economics and quality. As usual the end results are that the entire shipping industry works around the Jones act, for example cruise ships from Florida docking in the Baha…

Congress has been pushed not to eliminate would completely wipe out tiny remaining American Merchant Marine fleet. Most people who want to get rid of Jones Act are economists and other types who sole concern is "How much more money can we make from cheap shipping" while ignoring any national security concerns.

We could talk about modify it maybe allowing purchase of specialized ships from overseas friendly countries, like icebreakers from Finland.

Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#29

Post by throwway120385 »

quasse wrote: post #9

> We also see the same cultural issues that we saw with American shipbuilding more broadly. There seems to be a lack of motivation to take maritime issues seriously or treat them as important. This is the meat of the article in my mind. The US has globalized away its maritime industry in general and we now lack the institutional knowledge, infrastructure, and labor force needed to operate even semi-independently on t…

Even Whatcom County is having difficulty replacing the Whatcom Chief on budget, with the latest cost estimate being more than twice the federal grant they were given. This is all critical infrastructure in Washington but nobody knows how to build them in the US anymore.

Re: Why the U.S. can't build icebreaking ships

#30

Post by ViewTrick1002 »

stackskipton wrote: post #28
ViewTrick1002 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all stems from the Jones act. [1] The American shipbuilding industry has been allowed to atrophy in an idea that protectionism would lead to good commercial the results. What little gets built in the US is way behind the global peers in terms of economics and quality. As usual the end results are that the entire shipping industry works around the Jones act, for example cruise ships from Florida docking in the Baha…

Congress has been pushed not to eliminate would completely wipe out tiny remaining American Merchant Marine fleet. Most people who want to get rid of Jones Act are economists and other types who sole concern is "How much more money can we make from cheap shipping" while ignoring any national security concerns. We could talk about modify it maybe allowing purchase of specialized ships from overseas friendly countries,…

That is the problem with protectionism.

What starts with good intentions ends with a bandaid that someday will have to be ripped off at the cost of the people who made a subsidized living based on it.

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