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Gene Sharp: A dictator's worst nightmare

edition.cnn.com

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Re: Gene Sharp: A dictator's worst nightmare

#31

Post by gruseom »

planetguy wrote: post #28
gruseom wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gandhi's techniques aren't really generalizable to anything else People frequently say this (right down to the cliché about how lucky he was to be facing the British), but it's obviously untrue. Gandhi's great insight was that nonviolent resistance is more effective than violent resistance. He is increasingly being proven correct. (Popular movements pretty much instantly lose their legitimacy when they turn violent.)…

I think you're confusing what you'd like to be true with what actually is true. >Gandhi's great insight was that nonviolent resistance is more effective than violent resistance. Except: that isn't true. Or rather, it's true only in certain circumstances. >Popular movements pretty much instantly lose their legitimacy when they turn violent Perhaps, but "legitimacy" and three bucks will get you a cup of coffee. Power a…

Of course I don't mean that nonviolence beats violence every time (edit: though in fairness I do see what sounded like that). That would be magic fairy dust. The point about Gandhi is that what he did worked at all.

Power accumulates in the hands of whoever controls large numbers of men with guns.

If you're right, why would the military take Sharp seriously, as the article says they do? Don't they have all the guns?

The few times that nonviolent movements have succeeded, they have done so against a tired power

That smells like hindsight bias to me: if it works, the regime must have been "tired".

Re: Gene Sharp: A dictator's worst nightmare

#33

Post by satu »

accountswu wrote: post #30
kprobst wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To paraphrase Jamie Zawinski, all online conversations about geopolitics expand until the United States is at fault.

Simple one-liners often work well to brush aside the real issues, you don't need an argument, just a simplistic phrase that plays with emotions is enough. May I suggest that you read about who was at fault at what place and when? The current Syrian dictatorship is not US-supported, neither are Iran and North Korea. Does that mean that Britain and US have no part in bringing Iran to where it is today (i.e. 1953)? Do y…

I am on board with most of your points, I just wouldn't place too much emphasis on the "diplomatic" actions of America's past. You don't blame a country for its history, you learn from it, identify flaws in the system and change them.. (ie: Germany and Nazism, or U.S and slave trade). However, a major problem I think is willing blindness, for example: how many Iraqi deaths have been caused by Bush's WMD charade? A lancet study suggests 100,000's... but the American consciousness finds such a figure unconscionable, so it is not reported.

Re: Gene Sharp: A dictator's worst nightmare

#34

Post by accountswu »

satu wrote: post #33
accountswu wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple one-liners often work well to brush aside the real issues, you don't need an argument, just a simplistic phrase that plays with emotions is enough. May I suggest that you read about who was at fault at what place and when? The current Syrian dictatorship is not US-supported, neither are Iran and North Korea. Does that mean that Britain and US have no part in bringing Iran to where it is today (i.e. 1953)? Do y…

I am on board with most of your points, I just wouldn't place too much emphasis on the "diplomatic" actions of America's past. You don't blame a country for its history, you learn from it, identify flaws in the system and change them.. (ie: Germany and Nazism, or U.S and slave trade). However, a major problem I think is willing blindness, for example: how many Iraqi deaths have been caused by Bush's WMD charade? A la…

satu, I agree with you, if the American support for dictatorships had ended then it would have been futile to mention the past. The problem is that this is how the situation is today and it's the same as it was 10 or 20 or 50 years ago.

The Bush's WMD charade surely was indirectly responsible for killing far more than 100k Iraqi civilians, perhaps more than a million. The infamous leaks showed us that the US gov and military were lying about the numbers, the actual number of Iraqis they directly killed was close to 109k back then (no minutes of silence for them on any September day).

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wikileaks-109000-deaths-iraq-...

Since you mentioned that, what is even less well-known is that Bill Clinton's administration "saved" 500k Iraqi infants from the Saddam regime between 1991 and 1996 by sanctions that refused everything including life-saving drugs into Iraq. What's reported even less frequently is that Secy of State Madeline Albright thought about it: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1084/ Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

--60 Minutes (5/12/96)

Remember who was in Iraq shaking hands with Saddam and delivering killing machines in 1980s? https://www.google.com/search?q=saddam+rumsfeld

I'm not blaming fellow Americans for it, we're too busy watching celebrity gossip, who cares whether our tax money goes to kill thousands of protesters via dictators or to kill millions of civilians through our own machines.

Re: Gene Sharp: A dictator's worst nightmare

#35

Post by satu »

accountswu wrote: post #34
satu wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am on board with most of your points, I just wouldn't place too much emphasis on the "diplomatic" actions of America's past. You don't blame a country for its history, you learn from it, identify flaws in the system and change them.. (ie: Germany and Nazism, or U.S and slave trade). However, a major problem I think is willing blindness, for example: how many Iraqi deaths have been caused by Bush's WMD charade? A la…

satu, I agree with you, if the American support for dictatorships had ended then it would have been futile to mention the past. The problem is that this is how the situation is today and it's the same as it was 10 or 20 or 50 years ago. The Bush's WMD charade surely was indirectly responsible for killing far more than 100k Iraqi civilians, perhaps more than a million. The infamous leaks showed us that the US gov and…

You bring up some very interesting facts. Certainly being indirectly responsible for the deaths of millions should probably be keeping big time bureaucrats awake at night, but I sincerely doubt it. There are all sorts of psychological mechanisms that people employ to defend against this sort of cognitive dissonance... and unfortunately it is an easy and (sadly) natural part of being human. In the same way that Americans can eat meat while being blissfully ignorant of the environmental impact (let's not even talk about animal rights), Americans can also ignore what is occurring in dark rooms within foreign countries. It's the proverbial tree falling in the forest. My hope is that better data collection and live streaming will make global situations more 'real' to people. (ie: Abu Ghraib)

Re: Gene Sharp: A dictator's worst nightmare

#36

Post by sanxiyn »

kprobst wrote: post #25
jholman wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um. Why on earth would the article mention that? What does US foreign policy have to do with the life and work of one academic/writer? Are you under the impression that all Americans (e.g. the Executive branch, and Dr Sharp) are equivalent? Because they're not; they're actually pretty varied, and pursue opposing goals sometimes!

To paraphrase Jamie Zawinski, all online conversations about geopolitics expand until the United States is at fault.

Eh... because the United States often is at fault?

Re: Gene Sharp: A dictator's worst nightmare

#37

Post by lionhearted »

accountswu wrote: post #30
kprobst wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To paraphrase Jamie Zawinski, all online conversations about geopolitics expand until the United States is at fault.

Simple one-liners often work well to brush aside the real issues, you don't need an argument, just a simplistic phrase that plays with emotions is enough. May I suggest that you read about who was at fault at what place and when? The current Syrian dictatorship is not US-supported, neither are Iran and North Korea. Does that mean that Britain and US have no part in bringing Iran to where it is today (i.e. 1953)? Do y…

Normally I try to stay out of politics, but this one is really off-the-mark --

> Do you deny that 2 million Koreans were brutally murdered as a part of an imperial struggle in 1940s?

That's... not even close to a correct understanding of what happening.

Without the U.S. forces in the Pacific, Korea gets Japanized by Imperial Japan and Korean culture very possibly would have been eradicated and the Koreans assimilated as entirely as the Empire could have.

Similarly, the Korean War kept South Koreans out from under Kim il-Sung's and Stalin's rule. All of the Korea would be the quality of North Korea without the Korean War...

There's (relatively minor) USA/ROK tension right now, but the two countries have been so incredibly good for each over the last 50 years it's not even funny. South Korean culture is vibrant, the people are strong, inventive, and hard-working, and there's an excellent blend of traditional Korean values and culture along with a selection of Western values, modernity, technology, and infrastructure.

All war is terrible, but America's role in South Korea has hands-down been one of the most positive things the USA has done in Asia, perhaps one of the most positive things the USA has done ever in terms of foreign relations.

Re: Gene Sharp: A dictator's worst nightmare

#38

Post by datapimp »

accountswu wrote: post #34
satu wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am on board with most of your points, I just wouldn't place too much emphasis on the "diplomatic" actions of America's past. You don't blame a country for its history, you learn from it, identify flaws in the system and change them.. (ie: Germany and Nazism, or U.S and slave trade). However, a major problem I think is willing blindness, for example: how many Iraqi deaths have been caused by Bush's WMD charade? A la…

satu, I agree with you, if the American support for dictatorships had ended then it would have been futile to mention the past. The problem is that this is how the situation is today and it's the same as it was 10 or 20 or 50 years ago. The Bush's WMD charade surely was indirectly responsible for killing far more than 100k Iraqi civilians, perhaps more than a million. The infamous leaks showed us that the US gov and…

Young man.

I have been in your exact shoes and tried this exact strategy. Hated the exact same things you do. Told every internet forum that would accept me that the US Government has worked in order to support economic interests and supremacy through out the world and in the process has benefitted from and knowingly participated in serious crimes against humanity. I gave hundreds of examples backed by our own documentary record and declassified history. Chomsky style. I could go on for hours on just central America.

It doesn't work. Your words are going to fade into a black hole and eventually only you will remember them. And probably not, even.

This is not going to help you achieve your goals. Detach and think about why. It is obvious.

Re: Gene Sharp: A dictator's worst nightmare

#39

Post by datapimp »

planetguy wrote: post #28
gruseom wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gandhi's techniques aren't really generalizable to anything else People frequently say this (right down to the cliché about how lucky he was to be facing the British), but it's obviously untrue. Gandhi's great insight was that nonviolent resistance is more effective than violent resistance. He is increasingly being proven correct. (Popular movements pretty much instantly lose their legitimacy when they turn violent.)…

I think you're confusing what you'd like to be true with what actually is true. >Gandhi's great insight was that nonviolent resistance is more effective than violent resistance. Except: that isn't true. Or rather, it's true only in certain circumstances. >Popular movements pretty much instantly lose their legitimacy when they turn violent Perhaps, but "legitimacy" and three bucks will get you a cup of coffee. Power a…

Power accumulates first in the hands of the people who make the guns and the bullets, who package them, ship them, write the accounting software, process the orders, pack the trucks, etc.

The only real violence we should worry about is the every day violence that is used against these people ( mainly the threat of starvation, unemployment, poverty ) if they don't do their jobs. And that violence is surprisingly effective considering that violence changes the world by making it every day, and remaking it, over, and over, and over. Making people choose to get out of bed before 8am instead of sleeping in and making love and eating pancakes. Over and over and over.

Any one who talks about revolution without talking about first about every day life has a corpse in their mouth. Debates about violence and non-violence represent a decision that represents maybe 0.0005% of the experience of human beings.

There are so many more interesting, probably 100x more revolutionary decisions one could make, where this debate isn't even relevant.

Should one work on optimizing life for the sustainability of multiple concurrent romantic relationships instead of for the stability and predictability of a mortgage payment? If so, how? What effects would this have on the economic and military stability of a country?

Want to topple a regime? Make its subjects fall in love and want to bone more than they want to go to work.

Start by writing an app for that.

Re: Gene Sharp: A dictator's worst nightmare

#40

Post by mkramlich »

dredmorbius wrote: post #2

All that an no link to his seminal work itself, "From Dictatorship to Democracy". Free download. Or drop a dime on him. http://www.aeinstein.org/organizations98ce.html

Given the recent trend of yet-another-hipster-digital-doodad raising millions on Kickstarter hopefully enough socially progressive folks exist out there as well to drop a million or so on Gene and his team.
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