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EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

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Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#91

Post by anamax »

josteink wrote: post #76

Someone this determined to do something so wrong cannot be assumed to be neutral. This guy must be corrupt and on someone's pay-list. It would be in the EU's interest to start an investigation of Karel De Gucht to determine if this person is bribed and if these proceedings is a result of corruption. The EU would be wise to do so for its own business sake and before it's perception as a democratic body is tarnished in…

> Someone this determined to do something so wrong cannot be assumed to be neutral.

yes.

> This guy must be corrupt and on someone's pay-list.

No. True believers are far more fanatical/determined/etc than mercenaries. Money is far from the most effective motivator. (Proof sketch - mercenaries will switch sides for money. True believers won't.)

At least that's how humans work.

Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#92

Post by sbmassey »

rmc wrote: post #90
sbmassey wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascism is caused by the economic depression. The EU has proven itself to be completely economically inept. Therefore today's Fascism was caused by the EU. I would also point out there was no Fascism during the relatively peaceful age from the defeat of Napoleon until WWI, as well as no EU.

The EU has proven itself to be completely economically inept Err, what? The EU (& Common Market before it) has done wonders for trade and business. That's why many countries want to get into it. Several member states have had soverign debt crises (but then, the USA almost defaulted), but that has nothing to do with the EU. (More EU intergration might have stopped that)

I don't think any mainstream perspective claims that the crises in the various member states are caused by anything other than their being in the Eurozone, if that is what you are claiming.

Since the problems with having currency union without political integration were widely discussed at the time the union was being set up, I think that the failure to address them qualifies as 'completely economically inept'. Maybe 'completely' is a bit hyperbolic, when compared with the USSR or Zimbabwe, but still.

The great strength of Europe is that is consists of lots of competing small countries, which are capable of cooperating when faced with major threats such as the French or the Turks.

I can see why politicians would want to create a single State to oversee the whole area, but it boggles the mind that the rest of the populace would want to go along with that.

Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#93

Post by fleitz »

anamax wrote: post #91
josteink wrote: post #76

Someone this determined to do something so wrong cannot be assumed to be neutral. This guy must be corrupt and on someone's pay-list. It would be in the EU's interest to start an investigation of Karel De Gucht to determine if this person is bribed and if these proceedings is a result of corruption. The EU would be wise to do so for its own business sake and before it's perception as a democratic body is tarnished in…

> Someone this determined to do something so wrong cannot be assumed to be neutral. yes. > This guy must be corrupt and on someone's pay-list. No. True believers are far more fanatical/determined/etc than mercenaries. Money is far from the most effective motivator. (Proof sketch - mercenaries will switch sides for money. True believers won't.) At least that's how humans work.

Which is why mercenaries are generally much more pleasant to deal with than true believers.

Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#94

Post by fleitz »

Jacqued wrote: post #12
mibbitier wrote: post #7

Good news. Strengthens the case significantly for the EU to be abandoned.

And where would that leave us ? Massive recession in Germany, Bankrupcy for the southern nations, a few hurt nations (France, Italy, others) closing their borders to try to survive on their own, and the UK surviving as a dependency of the US. With fascist parties triumphing everywhere around (they are already doing 20%+ in a lot of countries, there are even nazis in the Greek parliament now). And, of course, global e…

That's an argument of tyrants.

There are fascists in the Greek parliament precisely because of the actions (or inaction) the EU takes. If anything the facts you outline point towards getting rid of the EU rather than giving it more power.

Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#95

Post by cabalamat »

BHSPitMonkey wrote: post #80
cabalamat wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have seen no indication that he's done anything illegal or held the parliament in contempt He's said he will ignore the decisons arrived at by the democratically elected representatives of the people. That seems a pretty clear indication to me.

What the parent commenter is saying is that he is technically acting within the legal bounds of his office. That is, impeachment will be impossible unless an actual violation of law is found.

> That is, impeachment will be impossible unless an actual violation of law is found.

The European parliament can't impreach the commission. What it can do is sack them (but all of them, not just one). No evidence of illegality is needed.

Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#96

Post by inopinatus »

drcube wrote: post #42
inopinatus wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It strengthens the case for changing the EU, it doesn't strengthen any particular argument for the future state. Abandoning the EU today would be an economic and social catastrophe, since it requires the re-erection of barriers at borders over which massive free flows of trade and labour currently exist. Germany's exports would be annihilated, the central European labour pool would be stranded, and several reintr…

Why would eliminating the EU require re-erecting trade and migration barriers? That doesn't make sense to me. Why not keep the good and throw out the bad?

Because to eliminate the EU means, technically, throwing out the Treaty of Maastricht (1992), the Treaty of Rome (1958) and the Amsterdam Treaty (1997) which together define most of the framework, institutions, conventions and law enabling European freedom of movement and trade.

There are several other treaties but these are the three most significant.

In other words, they are simultaneously the EU's constitution and they are the instruments keeping those trade & migration barriers down. So one cannot have one without the other. Instead a whole new set of treaties & governing organisations would have to be negotiated from scratch.

This is unlikely in the current, fragmented European political puzzle.

And even if they could be, well, the funny thing is, because of the nature of human specialisation, their details would be negotiated by the same diplocrats running the current system. I leave it to your imagination what the result of that will be.

Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#97

Post by accountswu »

There have been protests or at least a discussion about it in Europe; Western Europe as well as Eastern Europe. The US has already signed it without much problem. Surely the majority of Americans would not have wanted their President to sign it, but now that it has been signed it would take a lot more effort to kill it.

http://digitaljournal.com/article/318690 Op-Ed: Obama signed ACTA in violation of Constitution, say critics

Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#98

Post by astrodust »

riffraff wrote: post #44
Ygg2 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything described as ultra-rightwing are fascist in sheep's clothing. I know of openly fascist Golden Dawn party from Greece. And I think there are Tricolour Flame, New Force and National Social Front in Italy. There are also plenty of horrible evil parties with a similar agenda (but not identifying as right-wing or fascist) growing like mushrooms all over rest of the Europian continent.

To be specific "fascist" stuff is outlawed in italy, though this is barely enforced. This basically means you have fascist symbology and slogans on posters, fliers and speech, but you don't write "fascista" in the party name. There are a few of them, but far right parties have very little consensus (e.g. maybe 2-3% total), protest voting seem to go in different directions. By comparison, the hungarian far right is th…

"We're not fascist, we're just really, really, really right-wing and believe that fascists have a bunch of great ideas! But we're not fascist."

Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#99

Post by RachelF »

Nursie wrote: post #4

The commission needs to be neutered before the EU can be considered truly democratic. The fact that this guy can come straight out and say he's going to ignore court rulings and the democratic will of the elected MEPs with no fear of reprisals, because he's not elected, yet he can hold so much power ... it's sick.

The EU is not democratic. It goes to great lengths to avoid referendums by its subjects on whether they wish to be part of the EU or not.

If they do have a referendum and the result is not what the EU wants, another is held.

Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#100

Post by shard972 »

inopinatus wrote: post #96
drcube wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would eliminating the EU require re-erecting trade and migration barriers? That doesn't make sense to me. Why not keep the good and throw out the bad?

Because to eliminate the EU means, technically, throwing out the Treaty of Maastricht (1992), the Treaty of Rome (1958) and the Amsterdam Treaty (1997) which together define most of the framework, institutions, conventions and law enabling European freedom of movement and trade. There are several other treaties but these are the three most significant. In other words, they are simultaneously the EU's constitution and…

> cause to eliminate the EU means, technically, throwing out the Treaty of Maastricht (1992), the Treaty of Rome (1958) and the Amsterdam Treaty (1997) which together define most of the framework, institutions, conventions and law enabling European freedom of movement and trade.

So your telling me that they cannot possibly abandon the EU without abandoning these treaties? That and what stops them from simply re-writing and re-signing them?

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