Live data from Hacker News

In 1870, Lord Rayleigh used oil and water to calculate the size of molecules

atomsonly.news

71–80 of 209 posts

Re: In 1870, Lord Rayleigh used oil and water to calculate the size of molecules

#71
post #30

I won’t trust this until I myself can calm an acre of water with a teaspoon of oil. (Or at least see a YouTube video of someone doing it)

YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RST_ylwVrUw&t=1m27s

That's funny, thanks for sharing. I was watching his video where he's saying "you can see it right there, look how much calmer it is, it looks like ice" and was thinking "I don't know what he's talking about I don't see ... oh, that ice patch is water"

Re: In 1870, Lord Rayleigh used oil and water to calculate the size of molecules

#72

> Assuming that the oil formed a single layer of molecules — a monolayer — then the thickness of the oil film is the same thing as the length of one oil molecule. How did he know that the film of oil was one molecule thick? It feels like a huge assumption to me, but maybe this blog post left something out.

Blog post seems to have elided this point, but it did link the original paper which was quite short: https://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gold/pdfs/teaching/old_lite... Rayleigh's experiment was actually trying to solve for the minimum thickness of oil required to stop some camphor shavings from moving around on the water. He never states it explicitly, but I think the assumption is that the minimum thickness required to…

Camphor would release compounds that adjust the surface tension of water. So the oil would break that direct relationship.

Re: In 1870, Lord Rayleigh used oil and water to calculate the size of molecules

#73

I love articles like this. I feel like too often in science education (at least my science education) that laws and theories are presented as just something that you need to memorize, when in my opinion the stories of how things were originally discovered and figured out is eminently more fascinating and inspiring. Like I remember having to learn all of these biochemical pathways, but I left school with nary a clue a…

Did you get your physics education in high school or university? I only had to take one physics class in the USA at college for my major, quantum electrodynamics for electrical engineering but my professor wrote the textbook and I recall he went over each experiment starting from the fundamentals of our understanding of the basics of the atom, Newton's understanding of light at the time, double slit experiment, to Ma…

That was my Physics too, but Chemistry just completely glanced over the history. Same thing with Mathematics, no backstory of mathematicians. I guess that either 1. Physics History is short enough, well-recorded, or 2. Physicists really like teaching their history.

Re: In 1870, Lord Rayleigh used oil and water to calculate the size of molecules

#74
> I love this story because it shows, at least anecdotally, how deep scientific insights can emerge from the simplest of experiments. It's a testament to the idea that you don't always need sophisticated equipment to unlock the secrets of nature — sometimes, all it takes is a drop of oil and a bit of ingenuity.

This can apply to many other fields too!

Re: In 1870, Lord Rayleigh used oil and water to calculate the size of molecules

#75
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you get your physics education in high school or university? I only had to take one physics class in the USA at college for my major, quantum electrodynamics for electrical engineering but my professor wrote the textbook and I recall he went over each experiment starting from the fundamentals of our understanding of the basics of the atom, Newton's understanding of light at the time, double slit experiment, to Ma…

> experimentally proving general relativity Can you elaborate on that? What experiments did the professor perform?

I mis wrote, he talked about the experiments done to verify general and special relativity. Michelson-Morley was one of them that sticks in my mind along with some traveling atomic clocks. We never recreated the experiments like some of the other commenters did in their classes.

Re: In 1870, Lord Rayleigh used oil and water to calculate the size of molecules

#76
The credit for proving the existence of atoms is more often associated with Einstein's explanation of Brownian motion and Jean Perrin's experimental confirmation, even though earlier work by Lord Rayleigh, Benjamin Franklin, and others hinted at the molecular structure of matter.

Re: In 1870, Lord Rayleigh used oil and water to calculate the size of molecules

#77
post #50

In 1676 Roemer estimated the speed of light by timing the orbit of Jupiter’s moon Io, noting that as the Earth approached Jupiter, Io emerged from behind Jupiter a little earlier every day, and as the Earth traveled away from Jupiter it appeared a little later every day, with the time of day varying by 22 minutes over a year. Knowing the difference between the two distances, he reckoned that light travels that distan…

I always appreciate these stories about how very specific observations that most people would miss can give away far deeper details of the universe that many wouldn't even consider. Eratosthenes using shadows and figuring out the size of the earth within a few percent is another well known one.

Re: In 1870, Lord Rayleigh used oil and water to calculate the size of molecules

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you get your physics education in high school or university? I only had to take one physics class in the USA at college for my major, quantum electrodynamics for electrical engineering but my professor wrote the textbook and I recall he went over each experiment starting from the fundamentals of our understanding of the basics of the atom, Newton's understanding of light at the time, double slit experiment, to Ma…

What’s the name of that textbook? It sounds really interesting. Isaac Asimov wrote a couple books that follow the narrative of science from the beginnings up until the 80s or so, which I highly recommend. One is called Atom and is more focused on how we got to our “present” understanding of particles. There’s also one that takes a broader view, it’s something like History of Science (? not at my bookshelf right now).…

You're referring to The History of Physics. An excellent read for a budding mind.

Asimov was incredibly talented.

Re: In 1870, Lord Rayleigh used oil and water to calculate the size of molecules

#79
post #27
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some powder is added to the water, which covers the surface of the water but not the oil patch (which is circular). Then the oil patch diameter is measured.

This was how we did this when we replicated this experiment in high school. I guess from the other responses here that this wasn't common?

When we did it in high school (70's) we just used compound that had a long chain (soap?) and only one end dissolved in the water. It was very easy to measure and calculate the size of the molecule . We had a series of these simple experiments. Another I recall was measure the speed at which certain volatile compounds moved through the air.

I definitely learned that all science doesn't have to involve complex equipment.

Re: In 1870, Lord Rayleigh used oil and water to calculate the size of molecules

#80

> Assuming that the oil formed a single layer of molecules — a monolayer — then the thickness of the oil film is the same thing as the length of one oil molecule. How did he know that the film of oil was one molecule thick? It feels like a huge assumption to me, but maybe this blog post left something out.

It feels intuitive that a thin fluid on a low-friction surface (like water) would spread out "as much as possible" given enough time. There certainly may be confounding factors, but it seems like a reasonable thing to pin as an "assumption" in a hypothesis. I.e. he didn't have to "know" - assumptions are OK, and I don't feel like this one is huge .

> It feels intuitive that a thin fluid on a low-friction surface (like water) would spread out "as much as possible" given enough time.

Most fluids do not behave this way in most circumstances, because of surface tension, so it's really not intuitive.

This experiments is one of the few ways you can get an accurate measurement. Many other fluids will either mix or end up as bubbles/blobs many orders of magnitude thicker than a molecule.

Post reply on HN