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The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

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Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#231

Post by surgical_fire »

lnenad wrote: post #216
-mlv wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.google.com/search?q=collaborative+whiteboard Desk, chair, lightning, monitors are easily googlable, too. Coming back to office creates more problems than it solves.

> Desk, chair, lightning, monitors are easily googlable, too. All those things are part of the office and you don't have to pay for them. > Coming back to office creates more problems than it solves. Other than commute which could be a bitch in the US what other problems for the company do they create? Yes hanging out at home is nice for you/me, you can rest, nap, be with your kids, do chores, but how would this matt…

> All those things are part of the office and you don't have to pay for them.

I gladly paid for them so I don't have to commute. Since going remote I could move to the countryside too. Bigger house, nicer environment, cheaper. My home office setup follows me if I switch jobs.

> Yes hanging out at home is nice for you/me, you can rest, nap, be with your kids, do chores, but how would this matter to the company when people abuse these situations on a regular basis?

If you don't have the discipline to work when you are supposed to, that's a you problem.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#232

Post by munksbeer »

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #228
munksbeer wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want remote work then you need a very different kind of employment contract. (One that specifies concrete deliverables, not time owed.) We're a remote heavy company and we don't have that type of contract, and it all works really well. So no, you don't need it.

You don't actually "need" legal contracts and other boring ugly things, as long as everybody plays nice. We are now past that point where everyone plays nice working remotely.

Maybe you are. We're not.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#233

Post by [deleted] »

JohnBooty wrote: post #225
slg wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels a lot worse to deliver a lame joke at the start of an all hands meeting to a bunch of muted zoom windows with their cameras off. How much of the return to office is leaders wanting that polite chuckle from that captured audience back? I'm barely being facetious. "That polite chuckle" is really a stand in for all the soft power they wield in person that evaporates with WFH. They have lost a degree of control…

"That polite chuckle" is really a stand in for all the soft power they wield in person that evaporates with WFH. They have lost a degree of control and power, it is basic human nature to look for a way to claw that back. That's an interesting angle and I really mean "interesting" in the literal sense. My hunch is that the corporate executive's thirst for power generally works a little differently than that, in ways I…

[deleted]

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#234

Post by mathieuh »

surgical_fire wrote: post #230
jbverschoor wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? A workplace with no proper desk, chair, lighting, multi screen setup, isolation from domestic distractions, crappy phone lines due to bad internet, the hurdle of contacting someone who used to sit next to you, and the impossibility of scribbling something on a whiteboard etc? Sure, remote work can be productive for certain work, and for certain people. But people underestimate the value of an office. Working…

> Really? A workplace with no proper desk, chair, lighting, multi screen setup, isolation from domestic distractions, crappy phone lines due to bad internet, the hurdle of contacting someone who used to sit next to you, and the impossibility of scribbling something on a whiteboard etc? 1. The desk, chair, lighting and multi-screen setup I have at home is vastly superior to any I had in any company I worked for in the…

I have to agree with you. It took me until I'd got quite far through their comment to realise they were talking negatively about WFH and not being in-office.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#235

Post by consteval »

swiftcoder wrote: post #154
mgh95 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of this comes down to perception of ROI for management. If the employment market is giving you qualified candidates at the price you seek in-office, why would you expose yourself to risk? I'm in this situation now where I'm hiring early employees and looking to grow, and about 90% of the decisions is how well can I derisk this hire . I don't need elite developers; I need competent, conscientious "75%" d…

> If the employment market is giving you qualified candidates at the price you seek in-office Is the employment market actually giving you that? Anecdotally, I knew a handful of FAANG engineers with 10+ years experience who had gone full remote before the pandemic, and dozens more during/since. Those are the creme-de-la-creme of the employment market, and they are all hanging out at startups who are willing to play b…

> Is the employment market actually giving you that?

Yes, because the employment market is not a free market. You can find (virtually) any employees your heart desires, because workers are highly motivated to not die. In addition, they have no bargaining power, meaning they take what they can get. They don't have visibility either - hiring is a perfect black box to them.

The scales are not only not balanced, they're almost completely tipped. This is why companies can pay below market and still get a constant supply of (shitty) employees. If you simply lower your standards, you can get infinite employees. They could hire children if they wanted, and it would be easy. They could pay 50 cents an hour if they wanted. Luckily, the laws prevent this - but it's most certainly NOT an issue of demand. There's a high demand among children to work and there's a high demand among laborers to work for poverty wages.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#236

Post by MiguelX413 »

DragonStrength wrote: post #152
cyclonereef wrote: post #38

The idea that there's a global cabal of ultra-wealthy real-estate owners who have globally conspired to control people to go back to the office holds about as much weight in my mind as the idea that there's a global cabal of ultra-wealthy who have globally conspired to create a virus to control the population. Covid was an outlier event, and the outcomes that occurred as a result of it will revert to the mean over ti…

It’s more there’s a bunch of people who put their life savings into cheap structures on expensive land in SF and Seattle. If the next generation of high income professionals doesn’t have to buy their shitty 100 year old money pit, they’ve now taken a loss on the single biggest purchase they’ve ever made while the schools they bought for get worse. Many of these folks work at places like Amazon. No conspiracy needed f…

Why would the interests of those companies be aligned with those of their landlords in the first place?

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#237

Post by consteval »

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #194
yurishimo wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of your 8 hours at the office is productive work? In my experience, half the day is spent on coffee breaks and lunch anyway.

> How much of your 8 hours at the office is productive work? That's your management's problem, not yours. Your labor contract says that you owe the company your time, how they use it is not your business.

This sounds like you're focused more on punishment than on outcomes. If the outcome is the same in or out of office (that is, hours of unproductive time a day), then it seems to me you're upset that people are able to enjoy that time.

Requiring and taking time for purposes other than creating value for the company is nothing more than punishment. I understand being angry that you're sitting in the office twiddling thumbs while others are at home cooking. The solution here is not to punish those people for your own, and everyone's, in-office woes. The solution is to demand better for yourself.

I work in an office 5 days a week. I'll say right now - close to half of my time is wasted. However, I am still here in the office. Yes that absolutely sucks to know I could work 20 hours a week and achieve the same outcome. However, I am not "better" because I have enjoyed the punishment of spending that time. I am not more loyal nor more proficient. I am not less lazy. Pain IS NOT gain - that's a lie told by people with the intention of manipulating you to argue in favor of your own exploitation.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#238

Post by acuozzo »

jbverschoor wrote: post #140
JSDevOps wrote: post #135

The whole “remote work kills productivity” argument is outdated. Studies and real-world examples show the opposite: many people are more productive at home without the daily commute and office distractions. Plus, companies have tools and strategies to keep teams connected and engaged, so the idea that culture just dissolves over time isn’t based on reality. Culture isn’t about being in the same room; it’s about value…

Really? A workplace with no proper desk, chair, lighting, multi screen setup, isolation from domestic distractions, crappy phone lines due to bad internet, the hurdle of contacting someone who used to sit next to you, and the impossibility of scribbling something on a whiteboard etc? Sure, remote work can be productive for certain work, and for certain people. But people underestimate the value of an office. Working…

> Working in a coffee shop? Sure, if you have nothing to do but read some email.

I loathe remote work, but support others in pursuing what works best for them.

With that being said, Coffitivity¹ exists for a reason. Some of us work much better in environments like that, myself included.

I did the majority of my studying at Rutgers in the student center on College Ave, as my ability to focus is much better when I'm around people, but not interacting with them. While not as impressive as if I had done so at an Ivy League institution, I believe this was essential to graduating from there summa cum laude.

[1] https://coffitivity.com/

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#239

Post by jimmydddd »

klodolph wrote: post #10

I’ve heard this argument before and I don’t buy it. By that, I mean it may be true (that people want to prop up real estate prices), but I don’t think that this is enough of an explanation. If it were just about real estate, then Amazon would not be calling for 5 days a week return-to-office. I don’t think real estate interests are powerful enough to push Amazon around and I don’t think they’re entrenched enough in A…

I think there could be legit reasons for RTO, such as improved mentoring opportunities, and developing deeper productive relationships with co-workers. I'm in my 50's and have worked fully remote for 15 years, but most of my business comes from past coworkers with whom I formed close relationships via working late nights in the office, going to happy hours, grabbing a coffee at the break room, etc. So, while I agree the companies are pursuing their own agendas, I think workers (especially young workers) could benefit from RTO.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#240

Post by consteval »

MiguelX413 wrote: post #236
DragonStrength wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s more there’s a bunch of people who put their life savings into cheap structures on expensive land in SF and Seattle. If the next generation of high income professionals doesn’t have to buy their shitty 100 year old money pit, they’ve now taken a loss on the single biggest purchase they’ve ever made while the schools they bought for get worse. Many of these folks work at places like Amazon. No conspiracy needed f…

Why would the interests of those companies be aligned with those of their landlords in the first place?

Because the leadership who makes decisions, or even just has the potential to voice their opinions and have them weighted, own real-estate.

Better yet, those leaders maybe also love exerting control over their employees and find this more enjoyable in an office environment.

Companies ARE NOT a democracy. In my mind, there's a huge overlap between being high company leadership and also being a self-serving narcissist. Are we then surprised that narcissists prefer to do things in their own self interests, and prefer to boss people around while looking at them? To me, that's not surprising at all. I think people don't understand these decisions aren't made by hundreds of people, but rather less than a handful per company.

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