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If AI is helping people code better, why aren't products getting better?

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41–50 of 173 posts

Re: If AI is helping people code better, why aren't products getting better?

#41
Because like any tool, it can be used thoughtfully and it can be used carelessly.

There are use cases where LLMs help with coding (and they are growing as the things get better), but even if they could do as well as an experienced engineer at doing a first draft (which, debatable in any setting and falls off sharply once it's not a highly mainstream setting), a first draft is almost never a high-quality artifact.

They can also be used to get a sort of minimum viable diff that represents a liability to the codebase and those who maintain and depend on it, to do this with very little effort and therefore impose the negative externalities on someone else. Anecdotally this seems to be a distressingly common use case. I'm more than a little concerned that software quality is about to take an abrupt turn for the worse in aggregate.

More broadly, if you're anything like most people I know, the products you're using are getting better all the time... at making money for the companies that build them. Consumer Internet profits and/or valuations are at something like an all time high. All that lag and jank and spam and shit? That's not easy code to write or simple infrastructure to operate. That's full-metal-jacket monetization at great effort and expense.

Re: If AI is helping people code better, why aren't products getting better?

#42
You're using the wrong products!

1. Look for products that don't have (c)opyright. Any product still using that or licenses is going to evolve too slow and go extinct.

2. Look for products built on revolutionary simpler stacks like PPS.

I thought this was going to be an essay and not just a Tweet, so I did record a long winded response, which I think contains a lot of relevant info: https://news.pub/?try=https://www.youtube.com/embed/KhDvFNef...

Re: If AI is helping people code better, why aren't products getting better?

#45
It's complex - an essay in and of itself if we're to respond properly, but I'll try to keep things brief here.

First, let's address the tooling side. While the current crop of "code completion tools" built out of or around LLMs are quite capable in their own right, they're not exactly "free thinkers" like we can be. Rather, their output is limited by a combination of training data, the model itself, and - increasingly - the user's ability to put their ideas into a prompt that can generate the desired output consistently. So there's already a huge hurdle just on the tooling side to overcome before we can begin "improving", one tied just as much to the capabilities of the product as the capabilities of the end user. I would argue that this is the most immediate hurdle to cross if we want to see meaningful improvements to code as a whole.

In addition to that immediate hurdle, there's three more issues on the tooling front:

* The existing training data is largely bad, bloated, or insecure code samples (generally from publicly-available social media and repositories), because code security and efficiency are only relatively recent prerogatives of large development companies or outfits as they seek to dodge lawsuits (security) and increase margins (efficiency)

* LLMs aren't very good at teaching a user how to think better about a problem, only making them better at phrasing their prompt to get closer to a possible solution

* LLMs are stuck in a predictive framework that mandates an answer for the customer, as opposed to a human who is able to say "I don't know" and going off to learn more about that thing they're stuck on.

Ultimately, the tooling is helping novice or entry-level developers and hobbyists write better code, but only because the models were trained on code from more senior or professional developers that was also shared publicly. Senior developers and above may find utility in writing faster code with LLMs, but aren't nearly as likely to write better code as a result of the tooling, at least from my subjective reasoning.

Now let's switch to the business side of things, which I already touched on above. Businesses haven't been interested in secure or efficient code until very recently, as we began bumping up against the limits of physical hardware in x86-64 land and lawsuits for failures became more of an existential threat. This means a lot of the code from public samples fits the "done is better than good" mantra of modern business practices, rather than being an improvement to prior releases; even if a business has taken the time to create more secure or efficient code, they likely haven't shared it as it's a core part of their competitive advantage or product line. This will take years, maybe a decade before the LLM training sets have enough "superior" data to outscore the "inferior" training set data, during which time the status quo - barring a literal revolution in computing - is likely to remain.

Admittedly all of this is my subjective POV from infrastructure-world, and could be way off base; YMMV, buyer beware, caveat emptor, etc.

Re: If AI is helping people code better, why aren't products getting better?

#46
I have been messing around with a project using python on a raspberry pi. I know a little javascript but I'm no programmer and didn't know any python and hardly anything about linux before this. Chatgpt and Gemini have helped me a lot by writing code that included common libraries that I didn't know existed. Then I can modify it and tweak it to suit my needs.

Re: If AI is helping people code better, why aren't products getting better?

#47
Dunno, what products do you regularly use?

I know my hobby stuff is getting better. I generally dont make front ends for my projects, but genai has helped me build widgets for other front ends, and css/js frontends for a lot of my nonsense.

Re: If AI is helping people code better, why aren't products getting better?

#48
post #34

Why would there be a correlation between how fast something is developed and its quality? Assuming that AI is helping developers to write more code, it could mean: * there are fewer developers * developers are working less * the efficiency gains are resulting in more products being created rather than existing products being improved * AI isn't widely enough adopted or used to make enough of a difference * the benefi…

I am leaning towards fewer developers. There is a crunch in the job market and companies are finding rate of progress as being similar before, so don't feel inclined to hire more

Most companies I know are turning out less features, they are just more tuned features towards what they believe will provide value and less "moon shots".

Re: If AI is helping people code better, why aren't products getting better?

#50
I think of the current generation of AI coding tools as being like a developer with a little bit of experience in almost any tech stack and field of application.

If I’m investigating a new field or trying out a new language or library, relative to my own experience, then it’s quite common for an AI code generator to use idioms or libraries I hadn’t yet come across. That alone sometimes saves me a useful amount of time doing research.

However, it’s almost all breadth and very little depth. The quality of the generated code is rarely better than something a junior-to-mid-level developer might have written. It needs to be reviewed and corrected with similar diligence.

Similarly, the quality of a generated review of existing code or of generated supporting assets like test cases or documentation is often superficial and error-prone. I rarely find it an overall win to use current AI-based tools for these things instead of existing tools that can’t do as much but are consistent and reliable at what they do do.

So I wouldn’t necessarily expect current AI tools to help me code better, only sometimes a bit faster, and that mostly in new areas I’m exploring rather than areas where I’m doing professional work that is going to get shipped in the near future.

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