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EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

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Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#51

Post by rmc »

kalleboo wrote: post #26
Jacqued wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And where would that leave us ? Massive recession in Germany, Bankrupcy for the southern nations, a few hurt nations (France, Italy, others) closing their borders to try to survive on their own, and the UK surviving as a dependency of the US. With fascist parties triumphing everywhere around (they are already doing 20%+ in a lot of countries, there are even nazis in the Greek parliament now). And, of course, global e…

These "facists" and "nazis" are there as a reaction to the EU. They're the only ones people can vote for to express a negative opinion on the EU. If the EU disappears, they'll have survive on their actual ideology instead, and then they'll disappear again. And regarding the financials, the EEA and Schengen are perfectly fine. Norway, Switzerland etc don't have significantly higher barriers to trade. Personally I'm pr…

These "facists" and "nazis" are there as a reaction to the EU. They're the only ones people can vote for to express a negative opinion on the EU. If the EU disappears, they'll have survive on their actual ideology instead, and then they'll disappear again.

Errr..... History proves you wrong. Fascism was at the zenith of it's power when there was no EU. The danger is if the EU disappears, the fascists will come up with some other boggyman and get more powerful… Like last time…

Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#53

Post by vidarh »

Nursie wrote: post #4

The commission needs to be neutered before the EU can be considered truly democratic. The fact that this guy can come straight out and say he's going to ignore court rulings and the democratic will of the elected MEPs with no fear of reprisals, because he's not elected, yet he can hold so much power ... it's sick.

The issue here is that the EU currently is a de facto confederation.

The EU parliament can not be, and is not, the supreme legislative body for the simple reason that the member states are still sovereign, with the ability to withdraw (though there are some legal questions in some member countries about how that would be possible).

It is the same issue facing the US under the Articles of Confederation, where Congress was effectively powerless to do anything without full agreement of the states.

However the EU "worked around" this in part with the Council and Commission functioning as a sort of an "office of the president" (consisting of heads of the member states and the head of the Commission and a separate Council president) and cabinet respectively, with power delegated from the respective governments of the member states rather than from the parliament.

It is a "workaround" for the fact that a federal EU is currently entirely unpalatable to the electorate in most European countries to make the EU governable - ironically because people are worried about giving the EU more power, while the current arrangement is worse in that regard.

Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#54

Post by apk17 »

seclorum wrote: post #52

This is why the EU is not in fact a democracy, but a benign totalitarian fascist state. Member states, do not, in fact, control the governing policies being enforced on them by their masters.

And where do you think the people in the commission come from? National governments; what happens there is simply that stuff that couldn't be made to pass nationally gets readministered via the EU.

Besides, the EU is not a 'state'.

Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#55

Post by vidarh »

beeneto wrote: post #8

Since I know techdirt always reports aggressively in favour of internet freedom I read the direct quotes first and the techdirt commentary afterwards. From just the quotes, Karel De Gucht doesn't seem to be saying anything underhanded, just that if parliament doesn't ratify ACTA it will be modified (presumably toned down?) and resubmitted. I don't think techdirt's message "The european government is a corrupt puppet!…

Exactly. He's not doing anything that isn't done regularly by any executive branch that actually believes the laws they're trying to pass are necessary.

He's saying:

1) They want to find a way to make ACTA work. Because of that, even if the EU Parliament does not agree with its current form, it makes sense for the Commission to move forward with the ECJ, because if the ECJ says its incompatible with EU law, it will need to be changed regardless if it is to be passed, and it makes no sense for them to negotiate a solution with parliament only to find out after that that the ECJ would strike down the whole thing on fundamental questions afterwards.

2) They'll try to find a solution that addresses whatever reasons MEP's give for voting it down (assuming they do). Trying to reach a compromise is hardly an evil fascist dictator method, but standard operating practice. At least it is in Europe, where we're used to having governments that actually cooperate to pass things.

Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#56

Post by cabalamat »

vidarh wrote: post #53
Nursie wrote: post #4

The commission needs to be neutered before the EU can be considered truly democratic. The fact that this guy can come straight out and say he's going to ignore court rulings and the democratic will of the elected MEPs with no fear of reprisals, because he's not elected, yet he can hold so much power ... it's sick.

The issue here is that the EU currently is a de facto confederation. The EU parliament can not be, and is not, the supreme legislative body for the simple reason that the member states are still sovereign, with the ability to withdraw (though there are some legal questions in some member countries about how that would be possible). It is the same issue facing the US under the Articles of Confederation, where Congress…

> It is a "workaround" for the fact that a federal EU is currently entirely unpalatable to the electorate in most European countries

I'm sure in every EU country, most voters would prefer it if the unelected commission couldn't overrule the elected parliament.

Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#57

Post by cabalamat »

Luc wrote: post #25
rwallace wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like it's time for them to do just that - if this sort of open contempt for the democratic process and the rule of law doesn't qualify as adequate grounds, nothing does. What's the best channel by which to call for that action?

This is just sophistry now. The commissioner is playing the role he's supposed to play in the EU institutions, and I have seen no indication that he's done anything illegal or held the parliament in contempt.

> I have seen no indication that he's done anything illegal or held the parliament in contempt

He's said he will ignore the decisons arrived at by the democratically elected representatives of the people. That seems a pretty clear indication to me.

Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#58

Post by seclorum »

apk17 wrote: post #54
seclorum wrote: post #52

This is why the EU is not in fact a democracy, but a benign totalitarian fascist state. Member states, do not, in fact, control the governing policies being enforced on them by their masters.

And where do you think the people in the commission come from? National governments; what happens there is simply that stuff that couldn't be made to pass nationally gets readministered via the EU. Besides, the EU is not a 'state'.

Who voted for the EU President? (Nobody: He was installed by Heads of Industry from the member states..)

>Besides, the EU is not a 'state'.

Yup, and therein lies the problem.

Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#59

Post by drcube »

nickik wrote: post #47
drcube wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would eliminating the EU require re-erecting trade and migration barriers? That doesn't make sense to me. Why not keep the good and throw out the bad?

Exactly the EU should be a free trade zone and the should unify in a way that makes it easier for goods, services and people to be sold everywhere. The is almost no need for a waterhead burocracy in brussel.

I don't think you meant "people" there. Maybe "labor"?

Re: EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament

#60

Post by true_religion »

mnl wrote: post #36
paol wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The commission basically represents the governments of the individual member countries. Because it has the most power by far of all the european institutions, this means that the governments in turn can exercise power at the EU level in a fairly unimpeded fashion. If the legislative power were transferred away from the commission to the parliament (where it should be, if EU governance were to follow the standard appr…

In principle yes, but in practice that's not always the case. Once chosen, a member state can't remove a commissioner, even if they're willing to. Simply there's no way. Now they have to wait until 2014. Imagine that some political party has (actually) appointed a commissioner because they won the national elections, not much democratic but it's something. Next election they lose, and the new government can't change…

> Next election they lose, and the new government can't change the commissioner, where's democracy now?

This is standard practice in all civil service jobs, as well as the judicial branch.

You can't just remove a judge, or a bureaucrat because his party is out of office. Doing so, ensures that there is continuity and stability between governments.

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