The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age • Hacker News Board

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#131

Post by datameta » Sat, Sep 21, 2024, 5:27 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #78

herval wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my understanding of integrity means that you do things that are guided by a shared moral compass - keep your word, avoid cheating, etc. Those signals seem to be all external (you do them because you don't want to violate your contract with another person, etc). I don't think that's in any way related to self-worth (which is a measurement of value to yourself, independent of others)?

It doesnt have to be a shared moral compass, but simply your own. That is to say, you can practice integrity in isolation from other people. A simple mundane example would being going to the gym if you tell yourself you will. A more complex example would be acting in accordance with the values you believe in or not. If you think people that kick dogs are terrible, but you yourself go around kicking dogs, this creates…

This definitely touches on one important aspect of difficulty in enduring an addiction one is trying to cease. A promise broken thousands of times, and yet still made again.

However if it is the very cycle itself that increases the effort necessary for breaking out of it, how tied to self-worth is it for different people? When one is the subject and the researcher or the judge, defendant, and prosecutor simultaneously - it can be much more challenging to locate the anchor to which self-worth is tied.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#132

Post by Paianni » Sat, Sep 21, 2024, 5:32 PM UTC

herval wrote: post #105

harimau777 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids can't just leave schools in the middle of the day, so basically yes.

You can’t leave your job in the middle of the day, so basically you’re a felon too? This kind of meme nonsense belongs to reddit, not here

Maybe this varies by location but at least in the UK, adults can usually leave the grounds of their place of work during a lunch break. Not true for school kids. And the difference in population density between schools and offices is usually stark.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#133

Post by s1artibartfast » Sat, Sep 21, 2024, 5:32 PM UTC

MichaelZuo wrote: post #126

s1artibartfast wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A random child peasant might be the best at sewing, strongest, wisest, or most handy in their village of 40. When compared with a pool of 40 million, that doesn't seem like much to be proud of.

Because...? Of what underlying reasons?

There is no fundamental force of the universal that makes it so, if that's what you're asking. There is however a tremendous amount of psychology that predisposes people to seeking the admiration and respect of others. If you want a deeper reason, it is likely due to a cultural understanding that these things are actually advantageous, and some amount of deeper evolutionary biology

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#134

Post by norir » Sat, Sep 21, 2024, 5:33 PM UTC

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #119

squidgedcricket wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm envious of that intrinsic sense of self worth, but I don't follow how that's a consequence of being Christian. I carry guilt and shame from sins that can't be rectified, knowing that Jesus loves me doesn't help me love myself.

It's pretty funny when you consider that a huge part of Christian evangelism is the attempt to convince normal people that they aren't worth dirt and are condemned to eternal torture unless they believe in somebody that the religious can't prove exists for a feat that they can't prove ever happened.

Yes, that is one manifestation of Christian evangelism. Modern Christianity is plagued by literalism and ignorance. Most self identifying Christians (and I would posit most skeptical rationalists) have not deeply engaged with the texts and often when they do get hung up on an overly literal interpretation. If one looks beyond the surface, there is tremendous wisdom that helps everyone live better today -- not just in some hypothetical afterlife. Indeed, I believe that if you try to follow the teachings of Jesus, your interactions with others and your life writ large will be better. That has been my personal experience and I had to be called back kicking and screaming as a committed non-believer.

Of course, having said all that, I am personally dismayed by the state of Christianity in our world. Institutional Christianity has done and continues to do tremendous harm in the world so I am sympathetic to your perspective. Indeed, I am most upset because I find the way that many nominally Christian institutions behave to be directly contrary to the their own sacred texts. The hypocrisy is almost unbearable. But I would encourage everyone reading this to withhold judgment of other's faith practices and/or self-identification until you understand where they are coming from rather than lumping them in with the worst exemplars of their nominal affiliates.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#135

Post by crazygringo » Sat, Sep 21, 2024, 5:39 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #118

skissane wrote: post #4

The other day I was talking to a psychologist about [difficult personal situation which I am unable to discuss publicly] and she said to me “This must be really damaging to your self-worth.” And, my honest internal reaction to her statement (although I didn’t say it out loud to her) was “Self-worth, what is that?” Because I’m not sure if I have any? I don’t mean that in the negative sense that I think I am worthless…

A related observation I've gotten from interacting with normies including my wife: Most people assume there is such thing as a "self" and that it is okay, natural, and desirable to preference yourself when interacting with other people. Indeed, for most normies, there is only various people and their selves interacting. My autistic perspective is that there is only a system of the world, various roles that people hap…

This is a fascinating comment that really made me think.

And I'd like to present you with a different perspective.

You write that "My autistic perspective is that there is only a system of the world".

But it's important to realize that the "system of the world" you've developed is from your perspective exclusively. You are modeling everybody in your system, and you may be doing your best to be 100% objective and not push your own agenda.

However, your model is lacking because you can model your own "role" far better than anybody elses "role" -- you know your own preferences and desires with great accuracy, but not other people's. And you'll likely unconsciously assume that other people's preferences and desires as the same as yours, until proven otherwise.

You write "the aspie tendency to make observations about broad sweeping systems comes off as arrogance". But what if it has nothing to do with broad sweeping systems, but the fact that your observations are extrapolating too much from your own preferences/desires that you are projecting onto others without realizing it?

So the perceived "arrogance" may not be what you describe as an inappropriate reaction that you are bringing an agenda to things. But may actually be an appropriate reaction to the fact that you're making too many assumptions in your "observations about broad sweeping systems" that the systems in your head are reality, when they are not.

When I have conversations with really smart people who come across as arrogant, it's not usually because they are being overly objective. It's because while their logic and deductions may be 100% correct, it's their starting assumptions that are wrong, which usually assume that other people have the same preferences/desires as themselves. But sometimes it's really hard to understand just how different people can be.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#136

Post by antonkar » Sat, Sep 21, 2024, 5:40 PM UTC

I think self-worth is not a very useful concept. In my mind people with high “self-worth” demand or force others to do things for them - and that’s the definition of anger not “self-worth”. If you are willing to ask others to do things for you and are willing to get a no - that’s the only humane way to behave even thought some may consider it “low self-worth”

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#137

Post by Apocryphon » Sat, Sep 21, 2024, 5:41 PM UTC

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #119

squidgedcricket wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm envious of that intrinsic sense of self worth, but I don't follow how that's a consequence of being Christian. I carry guilt and shame from sins that can't be rectified, knowing that Jesus loves me doesn't help me love myself.

It's pretty funny when you consider that a huge part of Christian evangelism is the attempt to convince normal people that they aren't worth dirt and are condemned to eternal torture unless they believe in somebody that the religious can't prove exists for a feat that they can't prove ever happened.

That's a rather reductive take. Telling people "they aren't worth dirt" is a hard sell, for one thing.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#138

Post by s1artibartfast » Sat, Sep 21, 2024, 5:47 PM UTC

datameta wrote: post #131

s1artibartfast wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesnt have to be a shared moral compass, but simply your own. That is to say, you can practice integrity in isolation from other people. A simple mundane example would being going to the gym if you tell yourself you will. A more complex example would be acting in accordance with the values you believe in or not. If you think people that kick dogs are terrible, but you yourself go around kicking dogs, this creates…

This definitely touches on one important aspect of difficulty in enduring an addiction one is trying to cease. A promise broken thousands of times, and yet still made again. However if it is the very cycle itself that increases the effort necessary for breaking out of it, how tied to self-worth is it for different people? When one is the subject and the researcher or the judge, defendant, and prosecutor simultaneousl…

Huge topic, but I totally agree. There's a massive feedback between self control and self-worth

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#139

Post by bitwize » Sat, Sep 21, 2024, 5:51 PM UTC

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #119

squidgedcricket wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm envious of that intrinsic sense of self worth, but I don't follow how that's a consequence of being Christian. I carry guilt and shame from sins that can't be rectified, knowing that Jesus loves me doesn't help me love myself.

It's pretty funny when you consider that a huge part of Christian evangelism is the attempt to convince normal people that they aren't worth dirt and are condemned to eternal torture unless they believe in somebody that the religious can't prove exists for a feat that they can't prove ever happened.

Allistic people tend to feel a need to believe in something, even (especially) if they cannot produce evidence for it. This is called "faith" and widely regarded as a virtue because it gives structure and purpose to an existence that largely came about by accident. Jesus is fairly middle of the road in terms of horribleness of things to have faith in.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#140

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sat, Sep 21, 2024, 5:56 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #137

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty funny when you consider that a huge part of Christian evangelism is the attempt to convince normal people that they aren't worth dirt and are condemned to eternal torture unless they believe in somebody that the religious can't prove exists for a feat that they can't prove ever happened.

That's a rather reductive take. Telling people "they aren't worth dirt" is a hard sell, for one thing.

Not when you're also trying to sell them your solution.

"You are a worthless sinner, a transient cloud of mortal dust, with a soul that is in danger of an eternity of torment. Unless you - you know - do what we tell you."

As marketing pitches go, it seems pretty straightforward.