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The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

thewalrus.ca

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Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#121
post #9

What I love about these types of articles is it reminds me how fortunate I am to live in the wealthiest and most comfortable time Earth has ever seen and it’s very likely to get better. These types of existential panics aren’t possible when you’re sustenance farming as nearly every human that has existed was forced by nature to endure until a painful, horrifying death from disease or illness perished them. In order t…

Depends on what you mean by good. In Maslow's pyramid, the lowest levels are being optimised for while the highest are suffering greatly. By what are approximate proxies for high level metrics like self fulfilment and satisfaction, things are getting worse (especially in young people). Rates of suicide, depression, mental illness, self harm, addictions (drugs and alcohol), obesity, levels of social interaction, stres…

> The spiritual/philosophical progress of humanity has stagnated.

I can't agree. It doesn't make headlines or garner clicks but progress in spiritual/philosophical progress has accelerated greatly in the last five or six decades.

E.g. there's an actual algorithm for spiritual progress that was developed in 1989 from a school of psychology that is based in part on the Chomsky Transformational Grammar.[1]

As Gibson said, "The future is already here — it’s just not very evenly distributed."

> Depends on what you mean by good.

This is the essential question facing humanity. Wendel Berry phrases it as "What are people for?" in his essay of that name. It's a question that increases in difficulty as the intelligence of the system increases, faster, so AI won't help answer it no matter how powerful and GAI (no matter how powerful) will be in the same boat, ergo Douglas Adams was right and the Earth is a computer built to calculate the Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything. (Isn't that nice?)

Interestingly, the aforementioned algorithm is based on evoking a chain of motivations from some initial "presenting problem" to deep and profound spiritual states, in effect answering the question to the best of the ability of the person undergoing it.

Taking a step back, all human intentions form a DAG (Direct Acyclical Graph) with the upper reaches (so to speak) being perfectly compatible and harmonious. Most of the intervening motives are Yak Shaving. Another way of saying that is that most of us are wildly ridiculously wasteful. The obvious implication is that we can just "stop doing that" and eliminate all this wasteful activity and in effect get a huge wallop of resources and energy back "for free" (not to mention that high spiritual states feel really good.)

All this to say that the transistor and our digital networks are, strictly speaking, a kind of side show. The actual "information revolution" is learning to reprogram our minds to get over our BS and live happily ever after.

[1] core transformation process https://www.coretransformation.org/

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He didn't have the technology to record his thoughts on a topic and refer people to it. He did and we’re still reading them to this day.

I could be wrong in this. But wasn't his writings only for himself and was published only later. How many people really referred to his writings? When was printing press invented? How popular was it compared to Bible? Was it possible for people to consume his writings in multimedia formats like video, audio? Were there meme-pages on tiktoks which contextualized his writings in different day-to-day scenarios so that t…

[deleted]

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Christian. Something I have found within my faith tradition (and something I find is lacking in the culture around me) is a sense that I am in possession of an infinitely durable source of dignity and worthiness that is not tethered to who I am or what I have done. I have found this conceit enormously consoling.

I'm envious of that intrinsic sense of self worth, but I don't follow how that's a consequence of being Christian. I carry guilt and shame from sins that can't be rectified, knowing that Jesus loves me doesn't help me love myself.

Well, for some people I imagine it helps to know that there is someone that loves them.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#124
post #4

The other day I was talking to a psychologist about [difficult personal situation which I am unable to discuss publicly] and she said to me “This must be really damaging to your self-worth.” And, my honest internal reaction to her statement (although I didn’t say it out loud to her) was “Self-worth, what is that?” Because I’m not sure if I have any? I don’t mean that in the negative sense that I think I am worthless…

I feel the same. One thing that I have struggled with in relationships is that others need to feel validated, that their decisions are rational and that other people believe that they are rational. Stimulus from the outside to satisfy the inside. What makes this difficult for me is that I don’t need to feel validated, I am comfortable with my own decisions in life and do not need someone else to approve. I think this…

You may not need anyone else to approve, but doesn’t it still cause issues when they don’t?

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#125
post #4

The other day I was talking to a psychologist about [difficult personal situation which I am unable to discuss publicly] and she said to me “This must be really damaging to your self-worth.” And, my honest internal reaction to her statement (although I didn’t say it out loud to her) was “Self-worth, what is that?” Because I’m not sure if I have any? I don’t mean that in the negative sense that I think I am worthless…

A related observation I've gotten from interacting with normies including my wife: Most people assume there is such thing as a "self" and that it is okay, natural, and desirable to preference yourself when interacting with other people. Indeed, for most normies, there is only various people and their selves interacting. My autistic perspective is that there is only a system of the world, various roles that people hap…

Well that's an interesting theory. However, on reading it, my leading hypotheses are that people who express such disbelief in the possibility of their being selfish, either lack self-insight, or are lying. Your theory I would give a subjective probability rather lower than these.

Of course, this might be my lack of insight into the aspie mind. But self-interest is highly evolutionarily favourable, and is built into our brains from very early in our evolutionary history - from the first organisms that had brains.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did the child of a random peasant family 300 years ago 'formulate self-worth'? I don't see how digital technology diminishes that in relative comparison.

A random child peasant might be the best at sewing, strongest, wisest, or most handy in their village of 40. When compared with a pool of 40 million, that doesn't seem like much to be proud of.

Because...? Of what underlying reasons?

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He didn't have the technology to record his thoughts on a topic and refer people to it. He did and we’re still reading them to this day.

I could be wrong in this. But wasn't his writings only for himself and was published only later. How many people really referred to his writings? When was printing press invented? How popular was it compared to Bible? Was it possible for people to consume his writings in multimedia formats like video, audio? Were there meme-pages on tiktoks which contextualized his writings in different day-to-day scenarios so that t…

> Were there meme-pages on tiktoks which contextualized his writings in different day-to-day scenarios so that the importance of his general ideas were imprinted on their minds?

I honestly cannot tell whether this is satire or if I just don’t want to be on this planet anymore.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#128
post #114

One thing worth noting is that the metrics the author mentions (sales, likes etc) are clearly, as everyone would readily admit, not a true measure of value. At best, they're a proxy for what actually matters. And we know from Goodhart's law and reward hacking that optimizing a proxy is, at some point, either useless or actively counterproductive. This thought can be a real source of peace of mind.

>And we know from Goodhart's law and reward hacking that optimizing a proxy is, at some point, either useless or actively counterproductive.

I don't think that's accurate. It might be useless from the perspective of the system, but hugely advantageous from the perspective of the individual. When a co-worker hacks the metrics and gets the promotion, that might be bad for the company but it is great for them, and perhaps bad for you.

The same is true for sales, search engines, and social interactions.

I agree with your first point that the proxies are not true reflections, but don't see where this is peace of mind when someone loses out because of them. If anything, I think it would Foster anger that the system is rigged, basically the opposite of Peace of mind

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#130
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A related observation I've gotten from interacting with normies including my wife: Most people assume there is such thing as a "self" and that it is okay, natural, and desirable to preference yourself when interacting with other people. Indeed, for most normies, there is only various people and their selves interacting. My autistic perspective is that there is only a system of the world, various roles that people hap…

Well that's an interesting theory. However, on reading it, my leading hypotheses are that people who express such disbelief in the possibility of their being selfish, either lack self-insight, or are lying. Your theory I would give a subjective probability rather lower than these. Of course, this might be my lack of insight into the aspie mind. But self-interest is highly evolutionarily favourable, and is built into…

Yeah it's your lack of insight and your projection of your own psychology onto others
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