I always wonder about premises in cases like this. a pair of compression-power cycles is a nice way to question the usual. has anyone gone through all the features of a conventional engine and asked: what if there's an alternative? for instance, what if we're just interested in range-extension? can we transform the motion created by combustion into electrical power in a clever way? cylinder-solenoid coils? are poppet…
Iirc Koenigsegg is using camless valves (using solenoids?)
Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine
261–270 of 367 posts
Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine
#262Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many of the myths you are posting are busted here: https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-21-misleading-myths-ab... The national grid in the UK was so fed up with people making claims about the grid capacity it also busted some too: https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/ele... > The highest peak electricity demand in the UK in recent years was 62GW in 2002. Since then, the nation’s peak demand has f…
> Many of the myths you are posting are busted That article addresses literally just one of my claims
There are two articles in my post that address multiple points. Luckily I don’t even have to argue with you about this as ChatGPT can do it for me.
AI content below:
### Analysis of the Original Post and Response
The original post critiques the environmental benefits of electric vehicles (EVs), raising several concerns about their production, usage, and infrastructure. The response refutes many of these claims by providing evidence from reputable sources, notably *Carbon Brief* and *National Grid UK*, which seek to correct common misconceptions about EVs. Let’s analyze both the original post's claims and how the response addresses each point.
---
### Claim 1: *Electric cars still consume fossil fuels—just earlier in the pipeline*
- *Original Post's Argument*: The claim suggests that although electric vehicles do not burn fossil fuels directly, the electricity used to charge them is often generated from fossil fuels, thus shifting pollution earlier in the supply chain.
- *Response*: The *Carbon Brief article* acknowledges that while electricity generation still relies on fossil fuels in some countries, the grid is becoming increasingly decarbonized over time. As renewable energy sources like wind, solar, and hydroelectricity grow, the carbon footprint of charging EVs is steadily shrinking.
> "Many countries, including the UK, have rapidly decarbonised their electricity grids, meaning that electric cars are already far cleaner than petrol and diesel cars, and will get cleaner as the grid continues to decarbonise." - **Carbon Brief**
This directly counters the argument, indicating that while fossil fuels are still used, the grid is moving towards cleaner energy sources, making EVs progressively greener over time.
---### Claim 2: *Mining for rare metals in batteries is damaging to the environment*
- *Original Post's Argument*: The post highlights the environmental impact of mining rare metals like lithium, cobalt, and nickel, which are essential for EV batteries. It also points out the issue of disposal and recycling, suggesting that current methods for handling old batteries are inadequate.
- *Response*: The *Carbon Brief article* acknowledges the environmental costs of mining but contextualizes it within the broader benefits of EVs. It points out that while battery production has a higher upfront environmental cost, EVs offset this over their lifetime by producing lower emissions during use compared to internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles.
> "The manufacturing of electric cars can indeed produce higher emissions, particularly due to the energy required to produce the battery. However, this is offset by the much lower emissions during the use of the vehicle." - **Carbon Brief**
Additionally, the article touches on battery recycling, noting that significant research is being undertaken to improve recycling technologies and reduce the environmental impact of batteries. For example, companies are exploring second-life applications for batteries and refining recycling techniques.
> "Recycling of electric vehicle batteries is improving, and the EU has introduced regulations requiring EV batteries to be recycled." - **Carbon Brief**
---### Claim 3: *Power grids are not equipped to handle widespread EV adoption*
- *Original Post's Argument*: This claim suggests that the infrastructure for delivering electricity to homes is insufficient to support a mass switch to EVs, particularly in areas with outdated grid systems. The post implies that upgrading the grid would be costly and challenging, and that many countries still rely on fossil fuels to generate electricity.
- *Response*: The *National Grid UK article* directly addresses the concern about grid capacity, arguing that the national grid is more than capable of handling an increased demand from EVs. In fact, the article notes that peak electricity demand in the UK has been falling due to improvements in energy efficiency, and that even with widespread EV adoption, the grid would still use less electricity than it did in 2002.
> "Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002, and this is well within the range the grid can capably handle." - **National Grid UK**
In the U.S., a similar analysis found that the grid could easily support the growth of EVs.
> "By the time 80% of the US owns an EV, this will only translate into a 10-15% increase in electricity consumption." - **National Grid UK**
This contradicts the claim that grids are ill-prepared and highlights that grid modernization efforts are already in progress to support EV infrastructure.
---### Claim 4: *Electric cars are more expensive to run and may not always be greener over their full lifecycle*
- *Original Post's Argument*: The post suggests that, in certain cases, EVs may be both more expensive to run and less environmentally friendly when considering the total carbon footprint, including production, use, and disposal.
- *Response*: The *Carbon Brief article* provides a nuanced answer, recognizing that while the upfront cost of EVs can be higher due to the price of batteries, the total cost of ownership is often lower in the long run. This is due to reduced fuel and maintenance costs, as well as government subsidies and incentives for EV owners.
> "Electric cars can have higher upfront costs, mainly due to the cost of the battery. However, they are cheaper to run, due to lower fuel and maintenance costs." - **Carbon Brief**
On the environmental side, the article argues that EVs have a lower lifecycle carbon footprint compared to ICE vehicles, especially as grids become cleaner.
> "Studies consistently show that, even when powered by relatively carbon-intensive grids, electric cars still emit less CO2 over their lifetime than conventional cars." - **Carbon Brief**
---### Conclusion:
The original post raises several valid concerns about the environmental and infrastructural challenges of EV adoption, but the response effectively refutes most of these claims with data and evidence from *Carbon Brief* and *National Grid UK*. The articles emphasize the following:
- EVs are becoming greener as grids decarbonize. - The environmental costs of battery production are offset over the vehicle's lifetime. - Power grids in countries like the UK and the U.S. are equipped to handle increased EV demand. - EVs offer lower running costs and, overall, a smaller carbon footprint compared to internal combustion vehicles.
The original poster's assertion that the reply only addresses one of their claims is inaccurate. Both the *Carbon Brief* and *National Grid UK* articles provide detailed information that counters multiple points raised in the original argument.
Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine
#263Earlier quoted context omitted.
On top of that, the commenter is completely ignorant of the rise of saltwater batteries which don't even use lithium. Also probably unaware that with the rise of extremely low cost, solar and wind, Fossil fuel use on the grid is economically nonviable long term. Even so, the fossil fuels consumed on the grid are very likely to be combined cycle natural gas, which has less carbon emissions than have equivalent. Amount…
Name me one mass produced consumer car that uses saltwater batteries.
https://www.electrive.com/2024/01/02/first-sodium-ion-batter...
Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine
#264Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Your claim was it's not greener for everyone. No, my point was “EVs aren’t all that green either”. Things are going to improve. But people so often forgot about all the other environmental costs involved with EV. In an ideal world we’d be using push bikes, but clearly that’s not practical either. However it’s fair to say that this whole transportation debate is a lot more complicated than people like to summarise.…
Direct quote: In fact for some use cases they can actually work out both more expensive to run and less environmentally friendly once you total up their carbon footprint in full. End quote. No, once you total up their carbon footprint they make up their additional costs in carbon in less than 20k miles. As far as bikes are concerned, I've never owned a car in my life and I'm 40. Locally I go on foot, bike and rarely…
> No, once you total up their carbon footprint they make up their additional costs in carbon in less than 20k miles.
You’re being overly generalised. There are different ICE cars that have different carbon footprints. Hybrids too. Different driving styles that can affect fuel consumption too.
Just as there are different EVs that have different running costs, different mileage per charge, and different carbon footprints to manufacture.
Then you have questions about how that electricity was generated. Most countries are improving with their use of renewables but there are some counties out there that are just going to burn fossil fuels anyway.
However even if you ignore external factors like driving style, and where the electricity comes from, you still have literally thousands of different variables just on the vehicles alone.
These are all important variables that shape the results. Saying “20k miles” is completely bullshit headline made by people trying to greenwash people into buying EV. There isnt this magic line you claim there is. Instead we have a massive fuzzy grey area.
I also think you massively underestimate just how different European cars are to American cars.
Plus the fact that even your grossly generalised statement acknowledges that there is a cross over point, means I’m still factually correct; even ignoring how overly simplistic (to the point of being factually incorrect) you are.
> As far as bikes are concerned, I've never owned a car in my life and I'm 40.
Right. So your points are from a theoretical perspective rather than actual experience. Understood.
> So if you want to join me, fell free to, it's am awesome way to live.
I’m getting really sick of your assumptions about me. I’ve already said I work from home and rarely need to drive. That was literally in the comment you claimed to have “read carefully” - thus proving my point that you hadn’t.
I live in the countryside. So I do walk and cycle lots. That’s the entire reason I chose to live where I live.
———
You have this impression that cars are literally one thing and it’s a Boolean decision. But that couldn’t be further from the truth. People like yourself need to understand that life is fully of nuance. Which was the point of my original comment: that the issue around EVs environmental footprint is still being understood but even by conservative estimates, there’s still a lot of room to improve.
Yet you missed all of that when you “carefully read” my comment and instead focused on some meaningless generalisation you saw on twitter coupled with a bunch of incorrect assumptions about myself.
Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine
#265Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am sure that I don't understand the specifics of what Porsche is doing, but the article says the cycle is intake-compression-power-compression-power-exhaust. For that to be the case they have to be burning the same fuel and air mixture twice, and I don't understand the chemistry there enough to even speculate how it works. I think it's safe to assume that the second stroke is burning incomplete combustion products…
That actually makes a lot of sense merging with some comments from above. Second stroke goes lower and there are some ports to add air which are not accessed during the initial compression stroke...so the stroke is longer (higher compression) and more air is added to help with the reburn. Kinda sounds like combining the idea of the Miller cycle with a variable compression/stroke setup (see Nissan). There are a lot of…
So the first phase is like a regular 4-stroke engine, and the second phase is more like 2-stroke engine, where extra air (and possibly fuel) is introduced into the cylinder, like a 2-stroke, through ports located below the position of the piston during the bottom dead center of the first phase.
So I guess you have something like intake (high), compression (high), power (high->low), compression (low), exhaust (low->high), where in parenthesis is the adjustable piston height?
So a richer higher-compression first phase, followed by a leaner lower-compression second phase?
Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine
#266The market has moved to electric (see China) and Porsche would be well served on investing there versus on OS/2 (nee ICE engines).
Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine
#267Earlier quoted context omitted.
>need to talk about the vanity attraction of a future all electric Porsche Future? You can buy an all-electric Porsche Taycan since 2019 - and it’s faster than the 911. Sports cars are fully adopting electrification, due to the huge torque numbers and high scalability. M-B and BMW of course, but also Porsche and soon to be Ferrari. It’s not just hybrids used for a boost (as in the decade past): those are full electri…
What's your point? Future or now, my point about vanity remains. I don't see any point in arguing over my use of the word "future" here. Again, "faster" isn't the most important metric for car enthusiasts. Which is what I described in my post. I know that's disappointing to people who would like it to be in order to claim total justification for electric motors. To say that "sports cars are fully adopting electrifica…
I own a 2014 Boxster S. 315 hp, 266 lb/ft torque, 6-speed. It is NOT the fastest car out there. In fact I own an automatic 3-series BMW that's faster in a straight line every time.
But the Boxster is under 3k pounds curb weight. It is laser-precise on the road. And it sounds glorious, especially with sport exhaust.
I'm often driving between 20-35 mph in second gear because it's the best day-to-day way to hear the engine's sounds.
Otherwise, there are people out there buying 911s/etc. because they can rather than because they care, and those people don't care that Porsche is moving sports cars to hybrid, or less interested in putting manuals in their cars.
But lots of us still want the pure sports experience.
Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine
#268Earlier quoted context omitted.
That actually makes a lot of sense merging with some comments from above. Second stroke goes lower and there are some ports to add air which are not accessed during the initial compression stroke...so the stroke is longer (higher compression) and more air is added to help with the reburn. Kinda sounds like combining the idea of the Miller cycle with a variable compression/stroke setup (see Nissan). There are a lot of…
Ah, extra ports, that makes a lot more sense. I had missed that detail. So the first phase is like a regular 4-stroke engine, and the second phase is more like 2-stroke engine, where extra air (and possibly fuel) is introduced into the cylinder, like a 2-stroke, through ports located below the position of the piston during the bottom dead center of the first phase. So I guess you have something like intake (high), co…
With direct injection they could even be injecting more fuel into the cylinder for the second stroke...but I suspect the second stroke F/A ratio is determined by the first stroke remnants combined with the extra air allowed in at the bottom of the second stroke.
All of this with the cam variators, timing control, boost control and fuel setup that VW already runs would be fairly easy to control with the proper sensors and code.
Just speculating at this point...but it makes sense to me.
Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine
#269Reading these articles is like when you used to read articles in 2005 about people "innovating" on OS/2. The market has moved to electric (see China) and Porsche would be well served on investing there versus on OS/2 (nee ICE engines).
Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine
#270I always wonder about premises in cases like this. a pair of compression-power cycles is a nice way to question the usual. has anyone gone through all the features of a conventional engine and asked: what if there's an alternative? for instance, what if we're just interested in range-extension? can we transform the motion created by combustion into electrical power in a clever way? cylinder-solenoid coils? are poppet…