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The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

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Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#71

Post by orbisvicis »

wpietri wrote: post #51
skissane wrote: post #4

The other day I was talking to a psychologist about [difficult personal situation which I am unable to discuss publicly] and she said to me “This must be really damaging to your self-worth.” And, my honest internal reaction to her statement (although I didn’t say it out loud to her) was “Self-worth, what is that?” Because I’m not sure if I have any? I don’t mean that in the negative sense that I think I am worthless…

I think there are two ways you can look at it. One is what I think of as the neurotypical way. They spend a lot of energy on social modeling, on fitting people into hierarchies of privilege. (E.g., "respecting your elders", older sibling vs younger, teachers vs students, the popular kids, and so many other things.) Then in the same way they're judging the worth of others, they fit themselves into the same primate sta…

Are you suggesting that self-worth can only be defined as the sum of your perceived worth to others? That makes the 'self' in worth an oxymoron, no?

To you, it seems the best way to achieve self-improvement is to maximize your value to others, i.e. by moving up the social hierarchy. But that doesn't imply that those who don't play the game have no worth, does it?

I think you are conflating a sense of happiness with a sense of worth. They are not necessarily the same.

For example I occasionally find myself in conflict with an acquaintance over a miscommunication. If after explaining the underlying conditions the other individual refuses to adjust their perception of me, I couldn't care less. That's their problem, not mine, even if they continue to spread their (possibly vile) misperceptions.

Now if I had sucked up to them perhaps, yes, I would have improved my life. But what I did not do was reduce my self-worth.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#72

Post by BelleOfTheBall »

nahimn wrote: post #8

Call me unempathetic, but how would this be any different in a non-digital era? You’ll still have a market (albeit significantly smaller, IE: lets say a small locale or village). But you could have easily said the same thing in a non-digital age, with just more rudimentary metrics and a market that is a community that either values or doesn’t value your work. Much like the proverbial school playground (which could al…

Technology amplifies this, greatly. In a non-digital era our field of view was narrow, expanding either to our immediate physical surroundings or, when we went beyond them, limited by what we could read in a newspaper or see on TV. When I was little, I didn't know who was the most skilled person at my hobby or how popular it was or whether beautiful people online also happened to excel at it, while my teenage hormones wreaked havoc on both my personality and looks. Every single child in the civilized world nowadays is subjected to exactly that. You may be an aspiring dancer and there will be a million like you right there on your phone. It's hard for them to formulate self-worth when that is the case.

Does that mean the internet and digital advances are bad? No, it just means we were unprepared for them in a very meaningful way.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#73

Post by detourdog »

skissane wrote: post #4

The other day I was talking to a psychologist about [difficult personal situation which I am unable to discuss publicly] and she said to me “This must be really damaging to your self-worth.” And, my honest internal reaction to her statement (although I didn’t say it out loud to her) was “Self-worth, what is that?” Because I’m not sure if I have any? I don’t mean that in the negative sense that I think I am worthless…

I spent 56 years with that thought. Looking back for me it was family identity and trying to achieve standards of someone that died a decade before I was born.

I now understand self-worth in a new way. I had to realize that there was plenty of time to slow down and be deliberate. I had to get to point where I could take the time I needed to do a task.

I have no idea how others can find self worth but for me I describe it as being comfortable.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#74

Post by rnd0 »

didgetmaster wrote: post #44

Every user on HN has a score (up votes vs down votes) based on reactions to comments and submissions. How many of us will not be our authentic selves in a comment because of fear of how others might react? I know that I have done this.

Not really the ideal way to approach HN, although understandable.

If you're considering HN from a forum perspective, the best advice I've read is to think of 'points' as currency to spend on unpopular opinions. After a certain point, you can 'afford' to say whatever's on your mind (within reason). Reddit is the same. You rack up 'karma' so that you can afford to take some downvotes for speaking your mind.

Now, the other dynamic is that some people here expect to see and work with other HN folks in the real world. THAT is more chilling, and I don't think one could be one's 'authentic self' in that instance unless you're already a 'name' who doesn't need to give a rip about others' opinions.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#75

Post by wpietri »

BadHumans wrote: post #52
wpietri wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are two ways you can look at it. One is what I think of as the neurotypical way. They spend a lot of energy on social modeling, on fitting people into hierarchies of privilege. (E.g., "respecting your elders", older sibling vs younger, teachers vs students, the popular kids, and so many other things.) Then in the same way they're judging the worth of others, they fit themselves into the same primate sta…

Not a psychologist but I am friends with more than a few. I don't know why you assume the psychologist meant the first because they did not. Self-worth has nothing to do with social hierarchy. It is how you treat yourself and a core thing therapist work on is helping you treat yourself the way you would treat others, with compassion and respect.

I thought maybe I was using the phrase wrong, but the first two definitions I find are "the internal sense of being good enough and worthy of love and belonging from others" and "a feeling that you are a good person who deserves to be treated with respect". You'll note that those are both inherently social. And both "good enough" and "with respect" are about one's position in the caste/hierarchy structure.

The reason I assume what the psychologist meant is that most of them are neurotypical, and neurotypical people are deeply invested in social primate dynamics. I understand that this is hard for neurotypical people to see, but you might read things like DeWaal's "Chimpanzee Politics" or Johnson's "Impro" [1]. Plus there's my personal experience, where psychologists are very inclined to talk about self-worth in the social sense. And I think that's fine; I'm sure it works well for their neurotypical patients.

[1] particularly the section on status transactions, which are vital for authentic theater performances, but are rarely articulated because it's so natural to neurotypical people

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#76

Post by wpietri »

orbisvicis wrote: post #71
wpietri wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are two ways you can look at it. One is what I think of as the neurotypical way. They spend a lot of energy on social modeling, on fitting people into hierarchies of privilege. (E.g., "respecting your elders", older sibling vs younger, teachers vs students, the popular kids, and so many other things.) Then in the same way they're judging the worth of others, they fit themselves into the same primate sta…

Are you suggesting that self-worth can only be defined as the sum of your perceived worth to others? That makes the 'self' in worth an oxymoron, no? To you, it seems the best way to achieve self-improvement is to maximize your value to others, i.e. by moving up the social hierarchy. But that doesn't imply that those who don't play the game have no worth, does it? I think you are conflating a sense of happiness with a…

I just described two different ways of thinking about self-worth, so I am not suggesting it "can only be defined" as anything.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#77

Post by detourdog »

orbisvicis wrote: post #55
skissane wrote: post #4

The other day I was talking to a psychologist about [difficult personal situation which I am unable to discuss publicly] and she said to me “This must be really damaging to your self-worth.” And, my honest internal reaction to her statement (although I didn’t say it out loud to her) was “Self-worth, what is that?” Because I’m not sure if I have any? I don’t mean that in the negative sense that I think I am worthless…

The flip side of detaching self-esteem from technical competency is that you can make very strong assertions without being arrogant. People of integrity with utilitarian leaning are often labeled amoral or unemotional. People with a strong drive not attached to financial gain are often termed unambitious. Your perceived worth really depends on values of society, so if you remove yourself from the equation, you only h…

My partner considers my deliberateness as lazy. They won’t discuss things with me because they already know all about me.

My willingness to share their perception of me being ineffective was quite damaging to my self esteem. I never felt successful due to lack of acknowledgment of my achievements.

They asked me to leave the house about a year ago. Once I met new people and they saw me as successful and fun my self worth improved.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#78

Post by s1artibartfast »

herval wrote: post #45
elorant wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about integrity? Do you find that relevant? Usually people with integrity have high self-esteem because they adhere to a certain set of ethics. I'm not trying in any way to pass judgement, just to give you a different perspective.

my understanding of integrity means that you do things that are guided by a shared moral compass - keep your word, avoid cheating, etc. Those signals seem to be all external (you do them because you don't want to violate your contract with another person, etc). I don't think that's in any way related to self-worth (which is a measurement of value to yourself, independent of others)?

It doesnt have to be a shared moral compass, but simply your own. That is to say, you can practice integrity in isolation from other people.

A simple mundane example would being going to the gym if you tell yourself you will.

A more complex example would be acting in accordance with the values you believe in or not. If you think people that kick dogs are terrible, but you yourself go around kicking dogs, this creates a lot of cognitive dissonance and low self worth. If you promise yourself to stop, but keep breaking that promise, you realize you cant be trusted, which also impacts self worth.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#79

Post by jjulius »

didgetmaster wrote: post #44

Every user on HN has a score (up votes vs down votes) based on reactions to comments and submissions. How many of us will not be our authentic selves in a comment because of fear of how others might react? I know that I have done this.

I genuinely don't care. I've questioned downvotes I've received before, but usually it's just because I want to know why I might have had a bad take or how I might be looking at things wrong.

Respectfully, I know nobody here and you all mean nothing to my life, which is much broader than what I post here, so what do your judgements matter to me? What do these points actually mean that I should choose not to be myself because of them? The answer, to both, is nothing.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#80

Post by detourdog »

wpietri wrote: post #51
skissane wrote: post #4

The other day I was talking to a psychologist about [difficult personal situation which I am unable to discuss publicly] and she said to me “This must be really damaging to your self-worth.” And, my honest internal reaction to her statement (although I didn’t say it out loud to her) was “Self-worth, what is that?” Because I’m not sure if I have any? I don’t mean that in the negative sense that I think I am worthless…

I think there are two ways you can look at it. One is what I think of as the neurotypical way. They spend a lot of energy on social modeling, on fitting people into hierarchies of privilege. (E.g., "respecting your elders", older sibling vs younger, teachers vs students, the popular kids, and so many other things.) Then in the same way they're judging the worth of others, they fit themselves into the same primate sta…

I take comfort in seeing my experience described by others. I’m waiting on a neurological evaluation to see where on a spectrum I exist. I have been evaluated for a personality disorder of which none was found.
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