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Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

motor1.com

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Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#41

Post by wiseowise »

cbeach wrote: post #29
lb1lf wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably as Porsche is not about efficient transportation; it is about emotion, driving as an experience, making a statement, etc. Chances are there will be - or, at least, Porsche appears to bet there will be - a sufficient number of well-heeled enthusiasts who prefer the sound, smell and vibration of an ICE to the quiet performance of an electric motor. I am really curious to see how this pans out in a generation…

> performance cars should have ICEs After driving a fast Tesla, stepping into an ICE performance car feels like going back to a steam engine. A very slow, unresponsive steam engine. When avid petrolheads try a fast EV and feel the instant torque it will be an epiphany for them. Only the most stubborn will stick with fossil cars.

Instant torque is cool, but goddamn it is soulless.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#42

Post by inglor_cz »

sheepdestroyer wrote: post #26
lb1lf wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably as Porsche is not about efficient transportation; it is about emotion, driving as an experience, making a statement, etc. Chances are there will be - or, at least, Porsche appears to bet there will be - a sufficient number of well-heeled enthusiasts who prefer the sound, smell and vibration of an ICE to the quiet performance of an electric motor. I am really curious to see how this pans out in a generation…

[flagged]

Your proposals are a bit contradictory. If you heavily tax something, it becomes a money source for the government; does it then make sense to try to extinguish said activity through artificial social aversion? Also, whatever is vilified by the government, but stays legal or at least feasible, will act as a magnet for the counterculture.

If you really hate something, just propose an outright ban. It would work for Porsches; no one can secretly grow a Porsche in his backyard.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#43

Post by xxs »

keyboardcaper wrote: post #40
xxs wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk about North Europe winters - all the forever gray (and snow)

Have you ever been to North Europe in the winter?

>ever been to North Europe

No need for personal snark comments. Not everybody lives in the US. The worst part moving there was surviving the lack of sun light during the winter but that was many years back.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#44

Post by whiteboardr »

ttwwmm wrote: post #2

[flagged]

Honestly, i can’t get my head around how many folks actually think that it is an either or situation.

There’s zero chance we will be able to electrify all personal mobility let alone the elephants in the room being construction equipment, planes of all sorts and above all marine vessels that ship our goods globally.

EVs are well suited for a couple use cases but far from a monolithic solution.

It is beyond me how a group this large actually thinks that ICEs are facing “death”.

Once line is done going up in that field, i sincerely hope the discussion around this will mature and become less histerical.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#45

Post by yardstick »

thebruce87m wrote: post #38
abenga wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it a dead end? I agree that it should be , but it seems the entire world is walking back the commitment to a full transition to EVs.

https://www.edie.net/one-in-seven-new-cars-worldwide-is-now-... > One in seven new car sales worldwide is now electric > Year-to-date figures show that nearly 10.6 million EVs have been sold globally as of July 2024, marking a 16.3% increase compared to the same period last year. What constitutes “walking back”?

Not the op but in NZ there has been a significant drop in demand due to removal of subsidies and introduction of a distance-based tax (road user charge) for EVs.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/09/15/car-importers-stuck-with-...

“In 2023 January through August, one in four new light passenger vehicles sold were EVs. Fast forward to 2024 and EVs make up just one in 11 new light passenger vehicles sold”

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#46

Post by wiseowise »

azherebtsov wrote: post #18
larodi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you built your fortune on IT running in datacenters which consume magnitutes more energy to feed your customers; or else - if your business is about delivering stuff with 1000s of vehicles regularly being wasted... Tell me, at what point you start giving a damn about environment, and what pollution are we talking about at all? Sorry, but HN is full of people who made fortunes not giving major fucks about lots o…

It’s a ridiculous argument. You are typing this comment just because this damn not environmental friendly data center exists. But you pay nothing for HN. Hence someone’s do. That maybe this damn dude who made a fortune. But more than that, this dude has had to work hard long ago so that the data Center could be built and some nerds have got their jobs.

I’m not sure what your point is. The comment you’re replying to never argued that this data center is unnecessary. Both prestigious cars and data centers are necessarily evil. Just for different audiences.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#47

Post by freetanga »

freetanga wrote: post #37
ttwwmm wrote: post #2

[flagged]

Because large manufacturers are seeing EVs are struggling to take off. Might as well spread your bets. They are also working heavily on efuel, that works with ICE engines, does not pollute much, but currently would cost 2x at the pump. If they could shave that cost in half we could keep most ICEs (plus an add on catalyst). Distribution networks could be kept. Batteries and their chemicals would not be needed. So if e…

Just to clarify: I had to do an analysis on car markets across 10 countries in EU, Mexico and Latin America recently.

If 100% of new vehicles were electric today, it would take 15 to 20 years to renew the whole fleet in those countries. But today the share of new EVs were between 0 to 5%.

While there is a subyacent network effect (when 30% of gas stations close, it will be so hard to refuel that adoption will spike, which in turn will kill more gas stations), it still seems way off. The people I interviewed at car makers seemed to see EV as a new segment more than a new paradigm.

Your mileage might vary.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#48

Post by Phil_Latio »

ttwwmm wrote: post #2

[flagged]

I think you should rescale your ideological compass. If you just brush such inventions off the table, something is wrong.

Electric motors will prevail long term, simply for the fact that ICEs can't reach their efficiency. So no need to have this attitude.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#49

Post by teo_zero »

wiseowise wrote: post #41
cbeach wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> performance cars should have ICEs After driving a fast Tesla, stepping into an ICE performance car feels like going back to a steam engine. A very slow, unresponsive steam engine. When avid petrolheads try a fast EV and feel the instant torque it will be an epiphany for them. Only the most stubborn will stick with fossil cars.

Instant torque is cool, but goddamn it is soulless.

I'm sure they said the same when they saw the first photographs and compared them with paintings.

Re: Porsche's idea for a six-stroke internal combustion engine

#50

Post by Y_Y »

mjamesaustin wrote: post #17
hnlmorg wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric cars still consume fossil fuels. It’s just earlier in the pipeline. People love to talk about combustion engines being pollutants but few people talk about just how damaging it is mining for rare metals to make those batteries. Nor how harmful for the environment it is disposing of old batters (we haven’t yet solved the problem of recycling them either). And that’s before you even touch on problems at the po…

Most of these claims are dramatically false. - Electric motors use low amounts of rare earth metals, or in some cases none. Batteries generally don't use them either. - Automotive batteries have been demonstrated as >90% recyclable, far better than most materials we consider "recyclable" today such as plastic - The electric grid has sufficient capacity to onboard millions of electric cars without issue, and will not…

You've gone from false to unfalsifiable! (or at least unnecessarily vague).

- Plenty of electric drivetrains still use neodymium for example[0]. Whether it's too much or likely to change soon I don't know, but I feel like that's crucial to making a judgement on the overall harmfulness.

- Battery recycling is happening[1], but so is plastic recycling. Are batteries likely to be recycled, and are the environmental benefits and available profit sufficient to make it significant in the near future? Seems like yes, but it's not clear to me.

- Which grid? Is capacity sufficient just on average, or also at peak demand? Would that still be the case if EV adoption increases in the next five years? (or some timescale to short to build more plants). Looks like the US will do ok[2] but again it's not obvious.

- Does this also apply to buying new? Are you including resale value? What about carbon generated at power stations to provide the electrical power? This is a complex claim and it's hard to do anything with unless it's sharpened and given some numbers or at least references. Seems like price to consumer is roughly the same[3] and CO2 emissions even over about five years of normal use and will improve if the grid moves towards cleaner fuel[4].

Overall I think it's annoying for a commenter who knows the truth to go to the trouble of being convincing, but it's critical for having an interesting discussion that might change someone's mind.

[0] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/automa...

[1] https://www.npr.org/2024/06/27/nx-s1-5019454/ev-battery-recy...

[2] https://news.mit.edu/2023/minimizing-electric-vehicles-impac...

[3] https://www.nada.org/nada/nada-headlines/beyond-sticker-pric...

[4] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/electric-vehicles...

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