Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple Quietly Pulls Claims of Virus Immunity

pcworld.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 154 posts

Re: Apple Quietly Pulls Claims of Virus Immunity

#121

Post by novalis »

reidmain wrote: post #53

"Let's hope more Apple Mac owners are also learning to take important security steps -- such as installing antivirus protection." This is the worst possible step to take. When I switch someone over to Mac I take the opportunity to recalibrate how they see their computer as secure. I teach them to be more aware of what they are doing and how potential viruses could infect them. I find this is 100x more effective than…

What you post is fascinating, that is why I am asking all these coming questions.

Are you able, in good conscience of course, to point out antivirus software that would not qualify as "POS"?

Do you think that installing said not-"POS" antiviral software would be constructive or a big no no, at any given time ? (if they really exist and based on your own deep behavioral security know how, of course, that would be of great validity)

This "switch" you talk about, is it restricted to members of your family that you refer to in your post, and if so, are they older than you, or younger than you ? Is it a quick process ? Is it a deep life/computational altering moment for the intervened party? Do tell :)

Do they follow your "plugins off" recommendations to the letter, or do some of the "switchy's" stray from the path at times ?

Thank you in advance. Any and all details you post would be very helpful to enable a complete picture to be formed. For deep insight is only a post away, at last.

Re: Apple Quietly Pulls Claims of Virus Immunity

#122

Post by reidmain »

barista wrote: post #119
reidmain wrote: post #53

"Let's hope more Apple Mac owners are also learning to take important security steps -- such as installing antivirus protection." This is the worst possible step to take. When I switch someone over to Mac I take the opportunity to recalibrate how they see their computer as secure. I teach them to be more aware of what they are doing and how potential viruses could infect them. I find this is 100x more effective than…

>> When I switch someone over to Mac I take the opportunity Why only after switching? Is it not simpler to teach them these before switching? Wonder how much effect it will have if they did all those things regarding being careful clicking buttons and protecting personal information without switching.

The problem was that they were so ingrained with the Windows experience that they were resistant to change. They had their way of doing things and whenever I presented them with alternatives they would refuse to change, no matter how I presented it. Textbook examples were things like switching from Internet Explorer 6 to Firefox. They just would refuse to adapt.

When I switched them over to Mac they treated it like a newborn baby. They wanted my input on everything. They were so much more receptive to change because they had never used a Mac before.

Human beings are just so resistant to change and when they were learning how to use a computer in the 90s the user experience could be really grating. It seems like they just latched onto what worked and refused to let go.

Re: Apple Quietly Pulls Claims of Virus Immunity

#123

Post by neohaven »

barista wrote: post #119
reidmain wrote: post #53

"Let's hope more Apple Mac owners are also learning to take important security steps -- such as installing antivirus protection." This is the worst possible step to take. When I switch someone over to Mac I take the opportunity to recalibrate how they see their computer as secure. I teach them to be more aware of what they are doing and how potential viruses could infect them. I find this is 100x more effective than…

>> When I switch someone over to Mac I take the opportunity Why only after switching? Is it not simpler to teach them these before switching? Wonder how much effect it will have if they did all those things regarding being careful clicking buttons and protecting personal information without switching.

Because then the user is ready to accept a change in workflow.

They're getting an OS they don't understand anyway. They're "starting from 0", in a way.

It also helps that OS X doesn't bother you all that much with it unless it's actually important.

Re: Apple Quietly Pulls Claims of Virus Immunity

#124

Post by jpxxx »

shinratdr wrote: post #120
_b8r0 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That isn't what happened. It used to be true Stop drinking the kool aid. It was never true. OS X was exploit central for years. It was only the BSD base that stopped it from being exploitable from the network. All the client side stuff Apple added for years was RCE-you-like. Also a fundamental thing about security is the acceptance that security by obscurity is not a defensive measure. Genuine security doesn't rely…

> Stop drinking the kool aid. It was never true. It was always true, and it was a tangible benefit. Your arguments rely on it being considered "genuine" security or an effective defensive measure. It's not. That doesn't make it false, or not a benefit to end users. > and it only became necessary for them to do it when it started to become an issue because people were getting owned. What were people getting "owned" (f…

Dropbox, Skype, and Microsoft Office being distributed through App Store would be a hallelujah moment for me beyond all other hallelujah moments.

A staggering number of people I meet either can't get the job done, are too intimidated to start, download some malicious garbage, get waylaid by virus scareware, have no idea how to get the app into /Applications, get frustrated with Auto-Start naggers, freak out on Sparkle update dialogs, or never figure out how to pin the app to the dock.

Mac App Store is the answer to a lot of questions nobody "in the know" has had to ask in a decade or three.

Re: Apple Quietly Pulls Claims of Virus Immunity

#125

Post by reidmain »

novalis wrote: post #121
reidmain wrote: post #53

"Let's hope more Apple Mac owners are also learning to take important security steps -- such as installing antivirus protection." This is the worst possible step to take. When I switch someone over to Mac I take the opportunity to recalibrate how they see their computer as secure. I teach them to be more aware of what they are doing and how potential viruses could infect them. I find this is 100x more effective than…

What you post is fascinating, that is why I am asking all these coming questions. Are you able, in good conscience of course, to point out antivirus software that would not qualify as "POS"? Do you think that installing said not-"POS" antiviral software would be constructive or a big no no, at any given time ? (if they really exist and based on your own deep behavioral security know how, of course, that would be of g…

I haven't used antivirus software in well over a decade and I will no longer instruct anyone to install it. I have had no good experiences with antivirus software and from what I have read over the last decade they seem to stop only the most flagrantly obvious viruses out there. These same viruses are easily stopped by teaching safe browsing techniques and running web browsers that auto-update with plug-ins disabled. Antivirus software gives at best a false security blanket.

I've advised dozens of friends and family members over the years. The ages range from 12-80. It is typically not a quick process because everyone has questions. But I see this as a good thing because that is how you learn. I try not to ever give them the answer and just step them through the process. Most of the time they come across the solution themselves they just need someone nodding their head to get that confidence to continue. I'm not sure if it is a life-altering moment for them.

Only had a couple switchers so far and I have had no complaints. Plug-in blocking in Chrome is so seamless that they don't see it as a hassle at all when they realize how it protects them.

Re: Apple Quietly Pulls Claims of Virus Immunity

#126

Post by sillysaurus »

reidmain wrote: post #125
novalis wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you post is fascinating, that is why I am asking all these coming questions. Are you able, in good conscience of course, to point out antivirus software that would not qualify as "POS"? Do you think that installing said not-"POS" antiviral software would be constructive or a big no no, at any given time ? (if they really exist and based on your own deep behavioral security know how, of course, that would be of g…

I haven't used antivirus software in well over a decade and I will no longer instruct anyone to install it. I have had no good experiences with antivirus software and from what I have read over the last decade they seem to stop only the most flagrantly obvious viruses out there. These same viruses are easily stopped by teaching safe browsing techniques and running web browsers that auto-update with plug-ins disabled.…

Sorry, I haven't followed this discussion, so this may be offtopic, but...

If your family or friends are using Windows, then Microsoft Security Essentials is free and absolutely fantastic. Speaking from personal experience, it's far better than AVG for example. (AVG bogs down the system; Essentials manages to maintain an active scan with almost no overhead.)

Re: Apple Quietly Pulls Claims of Virus Immunity

#127

Post by reidmain »

neohaven wrote: post #123
barista wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> When I switch someone over to Mac I take the opportunity Why only after switching? Is it not simpler to teach them these before switching? Wonder how much effect it will have if they did all those things regarding being careful clicking buttons and protecting personal information without switching.

Because then the user is ready to accept a change in workflow. They're getting an OS they don't understand anyway. They're "starting from 0", in a way. It also helps that OS X doesn't bother you all that much with it unless it's actually important.

I was trying to not make the post have a "Mac is better" tone but it was difficult.

Most of the people I've advised learned on Windows 95 or 98. Those were horrible UX days and helped formed a lot of bad habits.

I've never had to switch someone to Windows and I've always wondered what sort of experience it would be. Coming from OS X I think they would have a better understanding of "the basics" but I wonder how this teaching style would apply to someone using Windows for the very first time.

Re: Apple Quietly Pulls Claims of Virus Immunity

#128

Post by jpxxx »

crazygringo wrote: post #6

I'm genuinely curious... are there viruses that spread in OSX? Not trojans or whatnot that require users to click on files they shouldn't, but rather actual viruses that make use of vulnerabilities in OSX to spread from computer to computer, either via Internet or thumb drives or something? In other words, if I always follow responsible practices (never opening files from untrusted sources), has there been any threat…

Yes and no, mostly "no".

There are functioning Microsoft Office trojans that can self-replicate through e-mail.

There was a largely harmless but extremely widespread trojan that did drive-by Java attacks on webpages.

Repeat the above for Flash vulnerabilities.

There was a largely harmless but extremely widespread trojan that masqueraded as a free antivirus package and guilt-tripped naive users into authenticating via Installer.app, the only programmatic way to get code onto a Mac.

Best practice in my reality:

- DO NOT INSTALL A VIDEO CODEC PACKAGE

- DO NOT RUN COPIED OR TORRENTED SOFTWARE

- Enable Firewall.

- Remove Adobe Acrobat Reader unless your PDF workflow absolutely requires it.

- Disable Java immediately. (uninstall it for extra credit)

- Make sure Flash is at the dead latest self-updating version and set to auto-update.

- Update all non-stock browsers to self-updating versions.

- Update Microsoft Office and allow it to check for updates weekly.

- Allow Software Update to do its thing weekly.

Re: Apple Quietly Pulls Claims of Virus Immunity

#129

Post by reidmain »

sillysaurus wrote: post #126
reidmain wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't used antivirus software in well over a decade and I will no longer instruct anyone to install it. I have had no good experiences with antivirus software and from what I have read over the last decade they seem to stop only the most flagrantly obvious viruses out there. These same viruses are easily stopped by teaching safe browsing techniques and running web browsers that auto-update with plug-ins disabled.…

Sorry, I haven't followed this discussion, so this may be offtopic, but... If your family or friends are using Windows, then Microsoft Security Essentials is free and absolutely fantastic. Speaking from personal experience, it's far better than AVG for example. (AVG bogs down the system; Essentials manages to maintain an active scan with almost no overhead.)

I've just had absolutely no good experiences with antivirus software. I can count on my hands the number of times they blocked an actual virus in my life. And those times were way back in the days when I was young, naive and using Limewire.

I've found that if you've gotten infected while following my teachings then no virus scanner would have stopped it.

Most of my friends and family do use Macs however so they is not as ubiquitous antivirus software for Mac.

Re: Apple Quietly Pulls Claims of Virus Immunity

#130

Post by jpxxx »

Free and unprofessional advice on how to avoid Mac malware and headaches:

- DO NOT INSTALL A VIDEO CODEC PACKAGE

- DO NOT RUN COPIED OR TORRENTED SOFTWARE

- DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANTIVIRUS PACKAGES OR "SYSTEM CHECKERS"

- Enable Firewall (System Preferences -> Security -> Firewall Tab)

- Uninstall Adobe Acrobat Reader unless your PDF workflow absolutely requires it

- Disable Java immediately (Spotlight Magnifying Glass -> 'Java Preferences' application. Uninstall Java entirely for extra credit.)

- Make sure Adobe Flash is at the dead latest self-updating version and set to auto-update (System Preferences -> Flash. Must be 11.3.x.x or greater)

- Update all non-stock browsers to self-updating versions (Name of browser -> Updates...)

- Allow Microsoft Office to check for updates weekly. (Help -> Check for Updates)

- Allow Software Update to do its thing, at least weekly (System Preferences -> Software Update)

Post reply on HN