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From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

anandsanwal.me

71–78 of 78 posts

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could do the same for math. Or any subject, really. There's a reason people go to college for that, and it's not because they want to sit with a book to learn the subject.

> Or any subject, really It isn't equivalent. Very, very few people manage to self-educate advanced math. But it's a lot easier with liberal arts. Allow me to pose this question - does a literature degree enable one to write best selling books? Does JK Rowling have a degree in literature? In contrast, learning math and engineering enables one to use that knowledge to create great things. One has zero chance of buildi…

You're not being consistent. People don't typically self-educate themselves for advanced math, but they don't do that for liberal arts either. J. K. Rowling doesn't have a degree in literature, but she doesn't do "advanced" literature: she writes books people like. She's good at what she does, but the "skill" needed is, like, grade school level. That's not comparative literature.

To put it another way: a lot of people actually do recreational math, which is largely self-taught. Maybe less than those who fancy themselves authors but it's still a lot of people. The aren't many people who study to make rockets, but there also aren't many people who end up as journalists or literary critics or copywriters but those people do actually get a degree in liberal arts to do that. Writing best-selling books is akin to being Martin Gardner.

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Liberal" as a political term is wholly unrelated to the original meaning of liberal arts though it's unsurprising that the two things are being conflated, even by people teaching at the college level. "Ninety percent of everything is crap." Just because there are a lot of terrible liberal arts programs doesn't mean it can't be done well. Try to not throw the baby out with the bath water while sorting this out for yo…

> while sorting this out for your personal edification. I wasn't rude to you, and rudeness won't bolster your case. > Just because there are a lot of terrible liberal arts programs doesn't mean it can't be done well. The difference is that, with a STEM degree, if you design an airplane and it doesn't fly then you're wrong. There's no way to delude oneself into thinking one's design works. There's no such corrective f…

I wasn't being rude to you either.

There are ways to get good data and best practices for social phenomena. It's just not easy.

It's not easy with science either. Plane crashes killed people like some Cthulhu horror tearing planes out of the sky before they realized square windows create stress points when flying at jet speeds which eventually destroy the plane.

People died because of that design flaw and it wasn't immediately obvious why.

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#73

Here's an insider's insight: Colleges hate these rankings too, including the shit eating grin they have to plaster on their face when they go out in public and say things like "We're one of the top 10 small public non-land grant research institutions in the upper middle pacific northwest region!" But too many families have been convinced that rankings like this are useful so now the institutions have little choice bu…

For me a great example is Reed college. Smartest person I ever met, went there. Had a 4.0 GPA. This is an onery school with regards to the bell curve, C average, so a 4.0+ GPA at Reed is a huge deal. Anyway, Reed simply tells US News to fuck off. Thus they are ranked lowly but much higher in reality. Similar to that weirdo Cali desert school with like 8 students that's student run - very smart people, very poorly known to the public. Anyway, Reed is otherwise notable for having a nucular reactor and its hyperliberal political spirit, for example, instead of man and woman bafrooms they have cisgender and transgender bafrooms.

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#74
> Instead of measuring an institution’s wealth or selectivity, it could track metrics like:

> Employment Rates: Track the percentage of graduates employed in their field of study within six months to a year after graduation.

> Earnings Data: Use data on median salaries adjusted for regional cost of living and industry to assess economic outcomes.

This is a toxic way of looking at education, in my opinion, like it's some kind of vocational training. By this metric, two-month training programs in high-demand fields would be the highest ranked, by far. But often, the subjects which have the deepest impact on one's thinking—and on one's curiosity, intellectual abilities, and life in general—are the ones which have no easy one-to-one mapping to a job. I've taken philosophy courses, and anthropology courses, which have changed my life completely, but I didn't get employment as a philosopher or anthropologist within six months after graduation. The value of education is in how much it can change your thinking, satisfy your curiosity, and make you into a well-rounded person. It's not just whether it can prepare you for some job. And if you reduce education to "median salaries adjusted for regional cost of living" then you're measuring education purely on a sell-out basis.

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or any subject, really It isn't equivalent. Very, very few people manage to self-educate advanced math. But it's a lot easier with liberal arts. Allow me to pose this question - does a literature degree enable one to write best selling books? Does JK Rowling have a degree in literature? In contrast, learning math and engineering enables one to use that knowledge to create great things. One has zero chance of buildi…

You're not being consistent. People don't typically self-educate themselves for advanced math, but they don't do that for liberal arts either. J. K. Rowling doesn't have a degree in literature, but she doesn't do "advanced" literature: she writes books people like. She's good at what she does, but the "skill" needed is, like, grade school level. That's not comparative literature. To put it another way: a lot of peopl…

end up as journalists or literary critics or copywriters but those people do actually get a degree in liberal arts to do that.

Given what the major newspapers write and the major news networks broadcast, it's quite an indictment of their liberal arts educations.

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while sorting this out for your personal edification. I wasn't rude to you, and rudeness won't bolster your case. > Just because there are a lot of terrible liberal arts programs doesn't mean it can't be done well. The difference is that, with a STEM degree, if you design an airplane and it doesn't fly then you're wrong. There's no way to delude oneself into thinking one's design works. There's no such corrective f…

I wasn't being rude to you either. There are ways to get good data and best practices for social phenomena. It's just not easy. It's not easy with science either. Plane crashes killed people like some Cthulhu horror tearing planes out of the sky before they realized square windows create stress points when flying at jet speeds which eventually destroy the plane. People died because of that design flaw and it wasn't i…

> I wasn't being rude to you either.

I quoted the line you used. Show it to your friends and ask them if they think it is rude or not, without saying you wrote it.

> There are ways to get good data and best practices for social phenomena ... it's not easy with science either

Liberal arts majors are particularly bad at it. I doubt they are even aware of what the scientific method is, or how to implement it. We all know that a survey can get wildly varying results depending on exactly how the questions are worded. I also see plenty of liberal arts surveys that use too few samples to get statistical validity, along with clearly wrong interpretations of the statistics. The lack of statistics being a required course for a liberal arts degree is just another glaring problem with liberal arts programs.

As for the DeHaviland Comet crashes, allow me to clarify. The problem with finding the cause was the airplane would disintegrate at high altitude with no warning, and all there was was a rain of debris. Once they gathered up all the pieces, and reconstructed the airplane from the debris, it was immediately obvious that the fault originated in the window corners, and any structural engineer knew why. They then conducted experiments to confirm it.

The problem was not "jet speeds". It was the pressurization/depressurization cycles from flying up to 30,000 feet and then down, resulting in fatigue damage. Square corners are "stress risers" meaning the stress in a square corner is 3x the stress in the rest of the material. The problem did not occur with propeller airliners because they flew at lower altitudes either unpressurized or with little pressurization.

A fix was devised - make the corners round, and a forged doubler was riveted over it. Then this was also tested, and proved sound. And it works because sound methods of design, analysis, and testing was done.

There is simply no comparison with how these things are done in aviation engineering vs liberal arts.

P.S. My degree is in Mechanical Engineering with a minor in Aeronautical/Aerospace, and I did design work on the 757, and have a particular interest in crashes and their causes.

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not being consistent. People don't typically self-educate themselves for advanced math, but they don't do that for liberal arts either. J. K. Rowling doesn't have a degree in literature, but she doesn't do "advanced" literature: she writes books people like. She's good at what she does, but the "skill" needed is, like, grade school level. That's not comparative literature. To put it another way: a lot of peopl…

end up as journalists or literary critics or copywriters but those people do actually get a degree in liberal arts to do that. Given what the major newspapers write and the major news networks broadcast, it's quite an indictment of their liberal arts educations.

Wait until you see what software engineers make.

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#78
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's such a strange way to evaluate schools. My high school was inner city. But they had AP programs, computer science classes, advanced mathematics. It's all about your child and the individual path they'll take within the school. And if they have or two smart friends that they enjoy hanging out with, they're golden.

My high school offered a nice selection of impressive advanced classes. The course catalog was amazing. I took those classes, and they were all milquetoast. It was all just a potemkin village. In contrast, the Caltech course catalog had classes blandly labeled "introductory" when they were well known for being brutal.

Similar experience here. I went to four high schools. The best ones, academically, were the bog-standard schools that people love to use as an easy punching bag.

The ones where classes were a breeze and barely challenging at all were the private college prep school and the not-quite-as-rich-but-still-pretty-wealthy high school in the suburban white flight community. My read on the situation was that teachers had figured out that every single parent believed their kid deserved a constant stream of gold stars, and had the leisure time and resources to make their lives miserable until it started happening. Also the white flight school cared a lot about its football team so you better make for damn sure that the classes aren't so challenging that the quarterback has trouble balancing their time spent on homework, practice, and partying.

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