221–230 of 359 posts
As a non-user of many social media platforms, is there anything I can do to prevent companies from collecting data about me? It feels wrong that companies you do not sign up for are still finding and processing data about you.
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Can you define a harm suffered by the people that the FTC represents? What about the EU beneficiaries of the GDPR? This is sincere, it is meant to advance to a real and interesting conversation.
I think privacy violations are a harm in themselves, but you seem to have already dismissed this issue, so I'll move on. How about behavioral manipulation via microtargeting, economic harm via price discrimination, reselling of the data via monetization to unscrupulous aggregators or third parties, general security reduction (data and metadata sets could be used for APT, etc), or the chilling effect of being tracked…
I don't know. Ads are meant to convince you to buy something. Are they "behavioral manipulation?" Are all ads harmful?
> ...economic harm via price discrimination...
Should all price discrimination be "illegal?" This is interesting because it makes sense for the FTC and for anti-trust regulators to worry about consumer prices. Price discrimination in software services - the thing I know about - helps the average consumer, because it gets richer people to pay more and subsidize the poor.
> reselling of the data via monetization to unscrupulous aggregators or third parties
"Unscrupulous" is doing a lot of work here.
> ...general security reduction...
Gmail and Chrome being free ad subsidized has done a lot more for end user security than anything else. Do you want security to be only for the rich? It really depends how you imagine software works. I don't know what APT stands for.
> chilling effect of being tracked all the time in this way?
Who is chilled?
I guess talk about some specific examples. They would be really interesting.
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I’m completely sympathetic to making companies more liable for data security. However, until data breaches regularly lead to severe outcomes for subjects whose personal data was leaked, and those outcomes can be causally linked to the breaches in an indisputable manner, it seems unlikely for such legislation to be passed.
I forgot where I saw this, but the US govt recently announced that they see mass PII theft as a legitimate national security issue. It’s not just that you or I will be inconvenienced with a bit more fraud or email spam, but rather that large nation state adversaries having huge volumes of data on the whole population can be a significant strategic advantage And so far we typically see email+password+ssn be the worst…
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None of this data is included in the FTC report. They are not talking about this. My full name is Michael Graczyk, I live in San Francisco, none of these companies know any more detail than that about the questions you asked
> none of these companies know any more detail than that about the questions you asked I suspect you mean that you haven't provided these companies with these details. What reason do you have to think they don't know those details?
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I’m completely sympathetic to making companies more liable for data security. However, until data breaches regularly lead to severe outcomes for subjects whose personal data was leaked, and those outcomes can be causally linked to the breaches in an indisputable manner, it seems unlikely for such legislation to be passed.
I forgot where I saw this, but the US govt recently announced that they see mass PII theft as a legitimate national security issue. It’s not just that you or I will be inconvenienced with a bit more fraud or email spam, but rather that large nation state adversaries having huge volumes of data on the whole population can be a significant strategic advantage And so far we typically see email+password+ssn be the worst…
https://www.facebook.com/dwight.crow/media_set?set=a.1010475... “#Weaponry and morale determine outcomes. The 2nd largest city of Iraq (Mosul) fell when 1k ISIS fighters attacked “60k” Iraqi army. 40k soldiers were artifacts of embezzlement, and of 20k real only 1.5k fought - these mostly the AK47 armed local police. An AK47 loses to a 12.7mm machine gun and armored suicide vehicle bombs. Finally, the attack was personal - soldiers received calls mid-fight threatening relatives by name and address. One army captain did not leave quickly enough and had two teenage sons executed.” #violence #Iraq #daesh
of course the americans used this kind of personalized approach extensively in afghanistan, and the israelis are using it today in lebanon and gaza, and while it hasn't been as successful as they hoped in gaza, hamas doesn't exactly seem to be winning either. it's an asymmetric weapon which will cripple "developed" countries with their extensive databases of personal information
why would a politician go to war in the first place if the adversary has the photos and imeis of their spouse, siblings, and children, so they have a good chance of knowing where they are at all times, and the politician can't hope to protect them all from targeted assassination?
the policy changes needed to defend against this kind of attack are far too extreme to be politically viable. they need to be effective at preventing the mere existence of databases like facebook's social graph and 'the work number', even in the hands of the government. many more digital pearl harbors like the one we saw this week in lebanon will therefore ensue; countries with facebook, credit bureaus, and national identity cards are inevitably defenseless
imposing liability on companies whose data is stolen is a completely ineffective measure. first, there's no point in punishing people for things they can't prevent; databases are going to get stolen if they're in a computer. second, the damage done even at a personal level can vastly exceed the recoverable assets of the company that accumulated the database. third, if a company's database leaking got your government overthrown by the zetas or daesh, what court are you going to sue the company in? one operated by the new government?
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> before anyone asks, "personalized advertisements" is not a good reason The good reason is growth. Our AI sector is based on, in large part, the fruits of these data. Maybe it's all baloney, I don't know. But those are jobs, investment and taxes that e.g. Europe has skipped out on that America and China are capitalising on. My point, by the way, isn't pro surveillance. I enjoy my privacy. But blanket labelling perso…
So you're saying it's all vastly valuable and that's why it is right that it is taken without consent or compensation?
No, I'm saying it's a common with a benefit to utilisation. A lot of discussions around data involve zealouts on both sides. (One claiming it's the god-given right to harvest everyone's personal information. The other acting like it's the crime of the century for their email address to be leaked.)
Lina Khan has been on a tear. She actually seems to care about online human rights.
I think this effort is positive, but a bit misdirected. Think data breach liability. Facebook and YouTube are willing and capable defenders of sensitive customer data. Watch the AshleyMadison documentary. Arrogant disregard for customer privacy and almost no culpability. These smaller, irresponsible players are where consumers are most vulnerable.
Meta, Google are much better stewards of their users data. One misconception I see is claiming these companies sell user data. I'd instead say that they sell user attention.
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The cognitive dissonance is in the voters and users. Even right here on HN, where most people understand the issue, you'll see conversations and arguments in favor of letting companies vacuum up as much data and user info as they want (without consent or opt-in), while also saying it should be illegal for the government to collect the same data without a warrant. In practice, the corporations and government have foun…
There isn’t a single intellectually honest harm associated with the majority of app telemetry and for almost all ad data collection. Like go ahead and name one. Once you say some vague demographic and bodily autonomy stuff: you know, if you’re going to invoke “voters,” I’ve got bad news for you. Some kinds of hate are popular. So you can’t pick and choose what popular stuff is good or what popular stuff is bad. It ha…
You’ve already signaled that you’re ready and willing to dismiss any of the many obvious reasons why this is bad. But let’s flip it. What intellectually honest reason do you have for why it would be wrong if I’m watching you while you sleep? If I inventory your house while you’re away, and sell this information to the highest bidder? No bad intentions of course on my part, these things are just my harmless hobby and how I put bread on the table.
In my experience literally everyone who argues that we don’t really have a need for privacy, or that concerns about it are paranoid or that there’s no “real” threat.. well those people still want their own privacy, they just don’t respect anyone else’s.
More to the point though, no one needs to give you an “intellectually honest” reason that they don’t want to be spied on, and they don’t need to demonstrate bad intentions or realistic capabilities of the adversary, etc. If someone threatens to shoot you, charges won’t be dropped because the person doesn’t have a gun. The threat is extremely problematic and damaging in itself, regardless of how we rank that persons ability to follow through with their stated intent.
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Then instead of regulating the companies, make SSN easily revokable and unique per service. I don't understand why Americans are so oppposed to a national ID despite the fact that every KYC service use SSNs and driver licenses.
Because they're the mark of the beast or a step towards fascism or something. I don't think it would take much to convert real IDs into a national ID, they are as close to as they can get without "freaking people out".
People could even generate their own number (private key), which they never gave out, and appeared differently to each account manager verifying it, and still replace them.
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