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Ask HN: Is it wrong not wanting career progression beyond senior?

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Re: Ask HN: Is it wrong not wanting career progression beyond senior?

#51
Senior just means you've worked for awhile. You're automatically a senior based on your work history. If you apply to junior roles companies will be confused, or they will just rerank you as senior anyway. Senior does not automatically mean more responsibilities, but leadership does.

Sometimes the bump in pay for leadership does not correspond to the amount of burden you experience, meaning your life might be worse for it and for not enough money. If you pursue leadership absolutely make sure that the pay is truly worth it because owning responsibility sometimes means late nights fighting fires.

Sounds like you're doing totally solid in your career.

Re: Ask HN: Is it wrong not wanting career progression beyond senior?

#52
I had a conversation with the VP of my department once about this.

He said that he is never going to try to advance beyond his role, and that he made that decision a long time ago. He decided what level he wanted to be at, fought to get there, and plans to be there for the rest of his career.

I also know a software engineer who has made the same decision. He wanted to hit the highest he could go in his role that didn't pivot to management (lead, director, etc) and he achieved it and has been happy there.

They're both very chill people, and they do well for themselves. Both also advised me (as I share your sentiments) to figure out where you want to end up, work hard to get there, make connections, and then do the best in that role for as long as you have it.

The VP said that even if you are dead set on being the president of the company, the truth is that the further you go up the pyramid, the fewer opportunities there are, and the more people competing for those opportunities. Unless you are willing to sacrifice everything else in your life for the chance to land that seat, it's not worth it.

I'm still relatively early on my career, so I'm fighting to get further up, but I know whereabouts I want to end up, and it's way below where my peers want to be. And I'm fine with that.

Re: Ask HN: Is it wrong not wanting career progression beyond senior?

#53
That's fine. Most people never advance beyond "Senior" (by title or objective scope).

Let's say a Senior is someone who's shown they can work effectively as part of a team, reliably and with little/no direction. You need part X of a system done, X is reasonable enough goal, and they will make X happen, including collaborating with interdependencies in a wise way. And they can go home at the end of the day, and have a life.

I'm "Principal" (and aspiring startup-CTO), and in my version of that, I live for this, I invest in the big and small pictures of whatever I'm working on, I believe in the mission for real, I have earned battle scars that help me solve system/org problems, and avert many bigger problems.

If a process isn't working well, or a product isn't on the right track, or team members aren't happy, or the hiring or culture are going sour, or things that should be happening aren't happening, or things that shouldn't be happening are, anywhere in the company... hopefully I'll notice, or someone will trust they can tell me about it, and I'll help figure who and how to tackle it with, and apply all the energy required. It would bother me not to.

I'd implicitly take on that scope of responsibility, even if I didn't officially have that role. Most people don't want that much responsibility, and most shouldn't have to.

Senior is a perfectly respectable role to serve until retirement, and a key part of what most orgs need to execute successfully. (Don't believe the bro myths popularized in some companies, like up-or-out.)

Re: Ask HN: Is it wrong not wanting career progression beyond senior?

#54
Senior Engineer tends to be a catch-all phrase for people who have 3+ years of experience but, for whatever reason, are getting into the next level of promotions (Staff for IC/TLs, manager for EMs). Most people are in this group, and there's nothing wrong with being here.

Re: Ask HN: Is it wrong not wanting career progression beyond senior?

#55

For me, I have two competing worries in deciding what’s next after senior. I like to spend my days in code. I don’t enjoy time spent in meetings like some people seem to. I don’t enjoy managing other people. But I also don’t enjoy poorly planned work, which is problematic as I’m become more opinionated about over time. Ultimately, I think you should feel ok rejecting a promotion if it forces you into responsibilities…

I work for a smaller company (~100 people) and took ownership of a new greenfield project. I have to wear all hats: hiring people, firing people, managing people (ensuring they're happy, salary adjustments), mentoring, project manager, architect, database design, mentoring other teams as SME (stayed at company too long), meeting with domain experts and creating requirements, UX design (amazing how few seem capable of this), reporting to leadership, meeting with clients, meeting with partners and their dev team, etc.

As you can imagine, some of these responsibilities can drive you mad. The domain experts may expect the product to do X, but they want it to work the same as their product made in the 90's and they start dictating how the UI should function. Since ultimately the success of the product is in my hands, communication ultimately is the most important thing. You have to push back against nonsense and suggest other ways of doing things to people who may be set in their ways (lots of yelling and you need to keep your calm). The endless meetings are another issue. And we don't have a strong company culture to set policies on meetings (like Amazon enforcing meetings must have a small 1 page writeup that everyone has to read). When you're hyper-focused on not wasting time and you join these meetings where half the time is spent talking about weekend plans it can drive you insane.

I got into software development because I enjoyed coding, problem solving, etc. I never signed up for this! I think after this, my next move will be able to step down into a role at another company with less responsibility. This is just too much pressure, especially with two young kids at home.

Re: Ask HN: Is it wrong not wanting career progression beyond senior?

#56

For me, I have two competing worries in deciding what’s next after senior. I like to spend my days in code. I don’t enjoy time spent in meetings like some people seem to. I don’t enjoy managing other people. But I also don’t enjoy poorly planned work, which is problematic as I’m become more opinionated about over time. Ultimately, I think you should feel ok rejecting a promotion if it forces you into responsibilities…

I work for a smaller company (~100 people) and took ownership of a new greenfield project. I have to wear all hats: hiring people, firing people, managing people (ensuring they're happy, salary adjustments), mentoring, project manager, architect, database design, mentoring other teams as SME (stayed at company too long), meeting with domain experts and creating requirements, UX design (amazing how few seem capable of…

Was the pay rise commensurate? Or have you been tricked?

Re: Ask HN: Is it wrong not wanting career progression beyond senior?

#57
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada didn't spend that money, yet healthcare is arguably worse than in US.

Only if you have the best insurance. For most other people it sucks badly, software engineers have no idea how it is for most everyone else.

It sucks badly for everyone indiscriminately in Canada.

Re: Ask HN: Is it wrong not wanting career progression beyond senior?

#58

You might consider hiring yourself out as a contractor. This is especially interesting if you're specialized in some vertical where you can bring consultancy skills to the table. Be the guy who's brought in when there's a problem, replace some proverbial screw, and then charge a week's salary for it. Because nobody else knew exactly which screw to replace. Also, this path allows you to delegate work to other contract…

The thing I can't figure out is how to get a good pipeline of screws that need replacing. All of my previous roles have been full-time salaried staff, and my network is all people like that. Getting a new job of that type is the infamous hurdle of interview panels, which would mean getting the contract takes more time than executing it, if the model I knew applied. So what model does apply? How do you find enough wor…

There are also brokers/agencies that match contractors with projects/jobs and take a percentage cut. Not ideal but better than nothing if you’re hopeless at networking like me

Re: Ask HN: Is it wrong not wanting career progression beyond senior?

#59

I personally experimented the dread of high responsibilities, and decided "never again". Since then, I have technical only positions. There is much to do technically, and I'm better paid than my chief. I enjoy each day of work, swimming in my lack of responsibilities

Same for me. Was Staff and Lead (with reports) for a couple years and was constantly stressed and responsible for so many things. Dread is a good word for many of those days. My next position is back to Senior and a contractor so I’m very much looking forward to just caring about my project.

Re: Ask HN: Is it wrong not wanting career progression beyond senior?

#60

My take might be a controversial take overall. Also note that I'm speaking as an American, in the "land of the free", which actually does apply in this case, I think: First, if it's OK with you, then it's not wrong. Ignore the things society/advertisers tell you: "You need a boat! You need a nice car! You need a pool!" Do you want a boat? Do you want a nice car? Do you want a pool? You actually have complete control…

One thing I’ve learned is that you can never win status games. Not playing them is good for you ego and your savings rate
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