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Is Tor still safe to use?

blog.torproject.org

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Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#501

Post by AnthonyMouse »

dev1ycan wrote: post #477
toby- wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed – you can never truly be completely "safe", but Tor remains the most privacy-preserving tool we've got. When people say they're distrustful of Tor (for various reasons) to the extent they refuse to use it, they seldom suggest alternative tools/measures that provide anywhere near the level of safety offered by Tor.

The argument is that using "privacy" tools makes it easier for a party to single you out, and they do have a point.

They have the opposite of a point. The logical conclusion of that line of reasoning is that everyone should use privacy tools so no one can be singled out. And that ordinary users with "nothing to hide" should be the first to start using them.

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#502

Post by kevincox »

bobbylarrybobby wrote: post #262
tg180 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No! The client controls path selection, and each hop is verified using its encryption keys.

You're saying that if you modify the tor software, other clients will be able to tell before connecting to you? And you can't trick them into sending to a bad node?

If you run a node that forwards traffic to any node other than the one requested by the client then that node won't be able to decrypt the traffic.

The client encrypts traffic to each node on its selected path in turn. If the traffic doesn't reach every desired node in order the traffic can't be decrypted.

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#503

Post by AnthonyMouse »

wildzzz wrote: post #483
friendzis wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's half the point. If someone has an intention to undergo some illegal activities with full intention not to be caught, only 100% "safe" solution works for them. Normally we talk about risk tolerance, but this particular use case is a bit special.

The only 100% safe method is to not do the illegal activity at all. There's always a risk/rewards analysis to be performed when committing any act that could have negative consequences whether you're playing the stock market or doing credit card fraud. For any major criminal that gets caught, you can usually read the arrest affidavit which offers a pretty interesting look into how the criminal was caught despite the…

> The only 100% safe method is to not do the illegal activity at all.

Nope. Not even that is 100% safe because you can be falsely convicted of a crime you never even committed. Many privacy tools reduce that risk as well, because you're less likely to be convicted by e.g. a lazy prosecutor willing to take things out of context if you provide them with less source material to trawl through.

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#504

Post by taco_emoji »

friendzis wrote: post #459
flufluflufluffy wrote: post #449

As knowledgeable users of the Internet in 2024, we would do well to assume that nothing is 100% “safe” (I.e. there’s no such thing as perfect security/privacy). However, some things, like Tor, can make your use of the Internet safer . If all you’re doing is arguing that Tor shouldn’t be used because it isn’t/was never “safe”, then you might as well not use the Internet at all.

But that's half the point. If someone has an intention to undergo some illegal activities with full intention not to be caught, only 100% "safe" solution works for them. Normally we talk about risk tolerance, but this particular use case is a bit special.

> If someone has an intention to undergo some illegal activities with full intention not to be caught

As opposed to... people who undergo illegal activities with the intention to BE caught???

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#505

Post by horsawlarway »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #501
dev1ycan wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is that using "privacy" tools makes it easier for a party to single you out, and they do have a point.

They have the opposite of a point. The logical conclusion of that line of reasoning is that everyone should use privacy tools so no one can be singled out. And that ordinary users with "nothing to hide" should be the first to start using them.

I mean, sure. And while we're at it pigs should fly.

Functional security means understanding your risks, and using privacy tools is a risk - in the sense that it does single you out in the current environment.

Your actual communications can be secure, but that doesn't stop a bad actor/government from picking you up and beating you with a wrench until you talk - if they get suspicious enough.

Just saying "everyone should use these tools!" is not actually a counter-argument. It's a fine long term goal, but it's not addressing the real risk that some folks might be in.

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#506

Post by sangnoir »

keepamovin wrote: post #490
autoexec wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps that, rather than a technical limitation, is the reason most high-profile arrests related to TOR involve criminals making some other mistake, rather than the security of the network itself being compromised. I have no doubt that the government doesn't want to demonstrate how weak Tor is to the public, but it's also got to be dead simple to find those kinds of "other mistakes" they can use when they've ident…

What you’re claiming is not necessarily correct, but it’s an avenue of interesting speculation. Nevertheless, let’s clarify a few of your possible misunderstandings or points of confusion: I’m not saying TOR is weak, nor that the reason for its concealment is to project a false sense of government strength. What I am saying—and what you seem to have misunderstood—is that the TOR network is most likely used, precisely…

> What I am saying—and what you seem to have misunderstood—is that the TOR network is most likely used, precisely because of its strength, for highly sensitive clandestine operations.

Tor seems to be a poster child of the "Nobody But Us"[1] principle the NSA likes so much: it's strong when used by American spooks, but weak when used against them. If a country developed body armor that's impervious to all rounds except their own special alloy rounds, their use and promotion of that armor is not evidence of its utter robustness.

I don't doubt a lot of darknet busts involve a lot of parallel construction - the intelligence community doesn't have to give detailed logs; summaries are enough (IP addresses, dates and times). This is before considering that the FBI is involved in both (counter) intelligence and law environment.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOBUS

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#507

Post by zerd »

akimbostrawman wrote: post #356
alfiedotwtf wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s that expensive to run Tor nodes, who is actually paying for them? I’ve heard individuals getting doors kicked in for participating in the network, so it’s not individuals. Corporates too wouldn’t want this type of burden… so is it really just spy-vs-spy

only exit nodes get there door kicked in and they are the minority and not needed for the tor network to function

They are pretty essential, without them you can only access onion services.

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#508

Post by Aerbil313 »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #311
giantg2 wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting thing is, the more agencies that run relays, the more they interfere with each other. So having something like US, Russia, and China a each running 25% of the network reduces the chances of any one getting all three relays.

This would help negate that interference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes

I get scared reading that wiki page. The fact that the Australians are powerless[1] to stop US operating Pine Gap on their own soil, says something about how important the stuff the NSA & co. is doing there. (Surveillance) Horrors beyond our understanding.

1: A good video explaining history & status quo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHMa-Ba-2Mo

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#509

Post by [deleted] »

DrillShopper wrote: post #435
HDThoreaun wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont see how TOR is better than just spinning up a server on the public cloud for each asset. Since each asset would have a different IP they couldnt use one assets knowledge to catch the others. Non-NATO countries tend to monitor internet traffic and so would know if you access TOR.

Servers in the public cloud are a lot easier to do traffic analysis on.

[deleted]

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#510

Post by pbhjpbhj »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #503
wildzzz wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only 100% safe method is to not do the illegal activity at all. There's always a risk/rewards analysis to be performed when committing any act that could have negative consequences whether you're playing the stock market or doing credit card fraud. For any major criminal that gets caught, you can usually read the arrest affidavit which offers a pretty interesting look into how the criminal was caught despite the…

> The only 100% safe method is to not do the illegal activity at all. Nope. Not even that is 100% safe because you can be falsely convicted of a crime you never even committed. Many privacy tools reduce that risk as well, because you're less likely to be convicted by e.g. a lazy prosecutor willing to take things out of context if you provide them with less source material to trawl through.

On the other hand "he was using the dark-web Tor browser beloved of criminals and widely used amongst drug sellers" is probably pretty convincing to jurors.
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