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Is Tor still safe to use?

blog.torproject.org

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Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#471

Post by ziddoap »

friendzis wrote: post #459
flufluflufluffy wrote: post #449

As knowledgeable users of the Internet in 2024, we would do well to assume that nothing is 100% “safe” (I.e. there’s no such thing as perfect security/privacy). However, some things, like Tor, can make your use of the Internet safer . If all you’re doing is arguing that Tor shouldn’t be used because it isn’t/was never “safe”, then you might as well not use the Internet at all.

But that's half the point. If someone has an intention to undergo some illegal activities with full intention not to be caught, only 100% "safe" solution works for them. Normally we talk about risk tolerance, but this particular use case is a bit special.

The entire conversation has to be about risk tolerance, because that's all there is. There never has been, and never will be, a 100% safe solution.

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#472

Post by ranger_danger »

akimbostrawman wrote: post #355
Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

most vps don't support xmr though. any suggestions to whom I can trust (I basically only trust hetzner in vps space)

>I basically only trust hetzner in vps space https://notes.valdikss.org.ru/jabber.ru-mitm/

What's more alarming to me is that they (the jabber operators) seemingly stopped caring about it. Whatever this intercepting proxy did (including from the sound of it, spoofing ACME challenges from their domain to get a certificate) could be illegal and they didn't even attempt to do anything about it, AND they are assuming that continuing to use the service after the attack stopped is somehow safe now.

Either they are grossly negligent/incompetent (IMO unlikely given the extent of their research), or they knew it was intercepted on purpose (either by law enforcement, the provider itself or one of their upstreams) and intentionally aren't saying so. They could also be withholding or lying about any number of things, including the exact response from the hosting providers.

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#473

Post by WolfeReader »

RiverCrochet wrote: post #169
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #42

It's safe if you ain't a pedo or terrorist. Sometimes I wonder wtf y'all are doing with such crazy security expectations and paranoia.

1. It's fun. Playing with these technologies is entertaining and will learn you some good stuff about the networking and the encryption and what not. 2. Tor allows reception of unsolicited TCP/IPv4 traffic if you are behind a NAT you can't open ports for, because your connection to the network is initiated on your side. This is nice, especially with increasing prevalence of CGNAT. 3. Something my niece stated when I…

You believe you have "nothing to hide" from 1. your own government, 2. the government of a nation you happen to be visiting or communicating with, 3. corporations who slurp up and sell personal data, 4. organized crime, 5. con artists and phishers looking for an easy mark, 6. people who personally want to harm you or exploit you, 7. people who want to harm others in your life and would use you as a means to do so, 8. people who want to harm your race/gender/religion/etc and identified you as a member of their targeted group.

Really?

End-to-end encryption technologies (of which TOR is one) help prevent entire categories of attacks which would otherwise be available to all of those groups, to use against you and others.

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#474

Post by hiatus »

qb1 wrote: post #407
belorn wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now to add additional problems. 1000 tor nodes on a single platform would be very noticeable and geographically limited. Platforms also have different weight attached to them in the consensus, which adds further time requirements before a node is promoted. The developers do not want a single platform provider to be able to observe a large portion of all the traffic, so there are counter measures. The attacker could t…

Pagers and the next day handheld radios exploded on their users! This can be done.

> Let's say I as a private individual fund 1000 tor nodes

Was the operation against Hezbollah funded by a private individual? Otherwise I'm not sure the relevance of your statement to the comment that started this thread.

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#475

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl »

friendzis wrote: post #459
flufluflufluffy wrote: post #449

As knowledgeable users of the Internet in 2024, we would do well to assume that nothing is 100% “safe” (I.e. there’s no such thing as perfect security/privacy). However, some things, like Tor, can make your use of the Internet safer . If all you’re doing is arguing that Tor shouldn’t be used because it isn’t/was never “safe”, then you might as well not use the Internet at all.

But that's half the point. If someone has an intention to undergo some illegal activities with full intention not to be caught, only 100% "safe" solution works for them. Normally we talk about risk tolerance, but this particular use case is a bit special.

As someone who's actually used Tor for illegal activities(buying drugs) this is completely missing the point. Criminals generally are not thinking about doing something completely risk free. The dumb ones don't consider risk at all, because they're desperate/addicted, and just hope/assume they won't get caught. More clever ones assume they'll be caught and try to make conviction less likely.

For instance, for buying drugs, the ordering isn't the risky bit. Receiving it in the mail is. Even if tor was magically "100% safe" the crime overall wouldn't be. The point of using tor is not to eliminate all risk, it's just to decouple payment from reception. I had my drugs intercepted by customs once, but they couldn't prove I ordered them, so they dropped the case. I'm sure it might've been possible for them to prove it if they spent a lot of resources trying to trace crypto transfers and so on, but police only do that if the fish is big enough because they're resource constrained.

Tor is just another tool criminals can use to reduce risk. It's not perfect, but for most things it's the best thing available.

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#476

Post by saghm »

friendzis wrote: post #459
flufluflufluffy wrote: post #449

As knowledgeable users of the Internet in 2024, we would do well to assume that nothing is 100% “safe” (I.e. there’s no such thing as perfect security/privacy). However, some things, like Tor, can make your use of the Internet safer . If all you’re doing is arguing that Tor shouldn’t be used because it isn’t/was never “safe”, then you might as well not use the Internet at all.

But that's half the point. If someone has an intention to undergo some illegal activities with full intention not to be caught, only 100% "safe" solution works for them. Normally we talk about risk tolerance, but this particular use case is a bit special.

If there were a way to 100% avoid getting caught when committing illegal acts, no one would ever get caught because everyone would do it

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#477

Post by dev1ycan »

toby- wrote: post #457
flufluflufluffy wrote: post #449

As knowledgeable users of the Internet in 2024, we would do well to assume that nothing is 100% “safe” (I.e. there’s no such thing as perfect security/privacy). However, some things, like Tor, can make your use of the Internet safer . If all you’re doing is arguing that Tor shouldn’t be used because it isn’t/was never “safe”, then you might as well not use the Internet at all.

Agreed – you can never truly be completely "safe", but Tor remains the most privacy-preserving tool we've got. When people say they're distrustful of Tor (for various reasons) to the extent they refuse to use it, they seldom suggest alternative tools/measures that provide anywhere near the level of safety offered by Tor.

The argument is that using "privacy" tools makes it easier for a party to single you out, and they do have a point.

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#478

Post by inquirerGeneral »

throwaway37821 wrote: post #178
sigmoid10 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Surely eventually I'm going to get a hit where all three nodes in the circuit are my nodes that are logging everything? The word "eventually" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Let's say you actually manage to add 1000 servers to the tor network somehow without getting detected. The network currently sits at just under 8000 nodes. For simplicity, lets also ignore that there are different types of nodes and geogra…

75% [0] of all Tor nodes are hosted within 14 Eyes [1] countries, so it would actually be quite trivial for the NSA to de-anonymize a Tor user. It baffles me that Tor Browser doesn't provide an easy way to blacklist relays in those countries. [0] Here, you can do the math yourself: https://metrics.torproject.org/rs.html#aggregate/all [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes#Fourteen_Eyes > Edit: For all the cynics…

[dead]

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#479

Post by trompetenaccoun »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #452
trompetenaccoun wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia and China are allies. And I'm not sure if Beijing would even be interested in spying on TOR users since it's blocked so thoroughly it's basically unusable for Chinese residents.

China and Russia are decidedly not allies. They are neighbors with some overlapping interests and sort of similar goals if you squint. It wasn't very long ago that they were killing each other over border conflicts and annexed territory. China right now is just using Russia for cheap energy, they don't actually care about the health of the state.

>It wasn't very long ago...

If that's how geopolitics worked China would still be an American ally, vice versa. But alliances can change. Once an enemy always an enemy isn't a thing.

>they don't actually care about the health of the state

That's true but it's not a requirement for Xi to care about Russia. In fact I'm very sure he doesn't care about the Chinese people either. Russia needs China and the CCP uses Russia, not just for cheap energy but for fighting a war that many Westerners haven't even realized that it has begun already. Russia and China have a common enemy, that enemy is NATO.

Re: Is Tor still safe to use?

#480

Post by red-iron-pine »

GunlogAlm wrote: post #466
friendzis wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's half the point. If someone has an intention to undergo some illegal activities with full intention not to be caught, only 100% "safe" solution works for them. Normally we talk about risk tolerance, but this particular use case is a bit special.

There are no "100% safe" solutions. There will always be weaknesses and vulnerabilities in any system. The sort of criminal who requires or expects 100% safety is quickly going to be caught due to being a dullard. Knowing you're never truly "safe" is what good criminals are keenly aware of at all times: you can plan and prepare for certain eventualities. Once you think you're "safe", it's the beginning of the end.

Security is a process, not a "state".

You don't do something, once, and then are good to go forever. Banks don't just put cash in a safe and forget about it; they have audits, security guards, cameras, threat intelligence profiling criminal gangs, etc.

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